Blackpowder & 243, 308, 223, 30-30 case capacity, velocity is it working?

[AJG]

Dear M TEC and Daschnoz,

Thanks Daschnoz. Your info is a very big help. Seems you are the only expert who has done this in real life.

M TEC. One of my fence is 500 meter Long and broad. Adyacent is another fence with another 500 meters Long and broad. And continue so 4 times more. So sometimes there are wild hogs in any of the fences. I do not want go grab my vehicle, start it and drive through 3 or 4 doors (cattle fence doors. Open Close, open Close, open Close, open Close, etc) in order to get the shot. As well we have a high water tank from which I very well would be able to set up an "snipers nest" and shoot anything from there a few miles (3 to 4 Kilometers) away. I am sure somebody will suggest to me a 50 BMG Armalite caliber rifle. So there you go. It is almost free land and you can see a few Kilometers without disturbance.

[M-Tecs]

Seeing something and hitting are a different matter. At over a kilometer misjudging yardage by 30 meters will give you a miss. Same for misjudging the wind by 1 KPH. How is your wind reading ability and what is your actual long range shooting experience? Any LR competition experience?

What bullets are you planning on using? BP accuracy and fouling control go hand in hand. How are you going to deal with that?

[nekshot]

I tried a lot of the things you are refrerencing included pull 22 lr bullet , dump the powder and fill with black and reinsert lead and go bang. It goes bang but I am sorta lazy and decided I prefer cleaning muzzle loaders rather than center fires. But, hey have a go at it and scratch the itch! That's what I did.

[AJG]

M TEC
Yes that is 100% true. Seeing is a whole other subject than hitting at that distance.
Long range experience? None.
Till now Long Range was nothing else than Long Rifle (22 LR).
I am fed up with that curvy 22 LR round at over 150 meters. That is why I went into reloading and Change the guns to reloadable ammo (till now 9mm Luger and 9mm Federal Rimmed/38 Short Colt +P+). I started this thread to see which would be for m the most feasable reloadable rifle caliber; as well in the case of SHTF I have to use black powder.
hickhock45 I believe has loaded and shot 9mm Luger out of an Glock pistol. I have an S&W SD9VE and that should work even better and safer (Standard rifling and no unsupported chamber).
308 50 BMG 223 and 7.62x39 they are slowly making illegal and I believe they can not be had anymore. That leaves me only with the 30-30 Win. I hope I can Import bullet molds so I will shoot everything cast bullets. SWC and WC with Lee Molds. As well I can reload 12 ga with Black powder since I havelots of empties from Scavenging powder and lead for reloading. It would be nice to reload Black Powder in 12 ga (since they have still the primers in them and load them with Buck&Ball (George Washington load).
Independence and ability to defend are the main intentions as well as hunting. If I can shoot and hit with the rifle (Black powder) 500 meters it will do it I guess.

[victorfox]

you should try getting a 45-70 then... For the long shots I don't know. I would get a flatter shooting caliber like 308, 30-06 and such and only use factory loads or reloads of the same power level and then practice practice...

With these alternative load "ideas" we've been talking best scenario you would have to correct some 3 meters height and struggle with windage.

Within 300 yards you would be fine with either black powder or reduced loads using scavenged shotshell powder from shotshells.

[AJG]

Using 308 30-06 factory ammo is not an Option due to high local cost. Any rifle caliber is not an Option if not reloaded since it is prohibitively expensive.

I Need an adjustable stock for all my rifles and shotguns. None of my Long guns are anymore without adjustable stocks (they have all adjustable stocks). So yes caliberwise 45-70 Gov is the best Option as well as ammo availlability concerns (buy 'em once and reload 'em 30 times).
But as fas as I can see there is no rifle with adjustable stock. 30-30 Win gun I am looking at is Mossberg 464 SPX Lever gun and in 308 Win is Mossberg MVP Flex bolt Action (both have adjustable stocks).

[M-Tecs]

AJG

For the average hunter/shooter on large hogs (300 pounds plus) using modern 308 or 30/06 cartridges 300 meters is about the effective distance limit. With cast and top quality BP half that is realistic.

To accomplish you goals your will need a high end laser ranger finder, very high end optics and equipment that is sub MOA. For optics clarity isn't the issue. Its tracking and repeatability that is the major shortcoming of optics.

You will also need a spotter and lots experience of shooting long distance with a spotter or shoot lots of Long Range competition. Wind reading will be your greatest challenge.

Given our location, experience and lack of components in my opinion your are facing insurmountable challenges.

[dverna]

It is relatively easy to make an adjustable stock.

If I were in your position, I would get a .45/70. You cannot get high velocity using black powder so bullet weight is your friend.

If shooting. .22LR at 150 meters is frustrating for you, you will go completely crazy shooting black powder at 1000 meters. Look at the drop tables and wind drift tables.

I suggest investing in a rangefinder as even an error of 50 meters in range estimation will be a miss. You will also need to learn how to shoot and read the wind. This can be done inexpensively with an air rifle at ranges up to say 75 meters. Of course, you cannot kill larger game with an air gun, but you will wound a lot of game at 500 meters with the calibers you are considering using black powder.

[AJG]

What M TEC says seems to me realistic.
That is what I feared.

Using Black Powder or shotgun powder from scavenged shotdhells for reloading gives ONLY a glorified +P++ 9mm Luger power Level or an glorified 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum power Level if any caliber rifle loaded to top with Black powder gives just around 500 to 900 ft-lb of energy and very limited range and huge bullet drop.
That is why I am not that after getting an rifle even if I can reload it since I just do not have the propper powder for reloading.
Seems there is a reason early Lever guns where pistol caliber cartridges while using Black Powder.

Basically the 45-70 Gov seems to be the epitomy (the very best) for realoading with Black Powder. If someone makes a rifle with adjustable stock in that caliber I will be glad to go with that caliber. It seems using 30-30 Win with BP or shotgun powder there is just not a big enough difference in energy Levels and range between 30-30 win and 357 Magnum/44 Magnum for let us say 400 Yard range hunting.

Looks like I stay with pistol caliber reloading (9mm and at most 357 Magnum).

[AJG]

no messin' around with modifying stocks or "making" adjustable stock. In the USA you can just buy all accesories but here in Southamerica there is just no supplies for any modifying.
I agree caliber wise 45-70 Gov is the best Option. Just Need a propper rifle.

[M-Tecs]

What country are you in?

[AJG]

Basically what it gets down too is:
Oldtimers: deficient powder (Black powder) so they had to add a heavier bullet. - Speed + bullet size/weigth= short range
Modern times: more efficient smokeless powder so they can cut down on bullet weigth and size. + Speed - bullet size/weigth= long range

Just one Thing replaced the other.
So I will have short range, heavy bullet and big size bullet, slow Speed since I am stuck with powder Technology in the 1873's.

That is what it boils down to (powder Technology made the whole difference).

[AJG]

I am in Southamerica and not far away from Brazil (as any Country is in Southamerica).
Want to stay secret about my Location (any time Venezuelan type Situation can occur). In case of Venezuela let us paint this scenario: anybody knows you reload they may storm your house seeking to grab some ammo and kill you by the way.

[TXGunNut]

30WCF is a bit disappointing with BP but you're welcome to experience it yourself. BTW and contrary to popular lore the 30WCF was not designed as a BP cartridge. The second "30" designates 30 grs of smokeless powder. 32WS may be a better choice.

[M-Tecs]

One item I neglected to mention about optics. None of the internal adjustment scopes will have enough elevation for long range hunting with BP cartridges. You will need external adjustments to handle the amount of drop you are looking for.

What does 30/06 commercial ammo cost you per round in US dollars?

[AJG]

For your reference her in US$ actual Prices (Prices as is per round today in my Country in Southamerica):
9mm Luger 0.81$
30-06 is 3.31$
38 spl is 1.01$
44 mag is 1.93$
45 acp is 1.01$
357 mag 1.56$
So there you go. Factory ammo is not affordable less for Shooting regularly. Reloading yes here around is allways saving huge Money (I scavenge shotshells for powder for reloading 9mm Luger and +p+ 38 short Colt).

[AJG]

308 is about 2.94 US$ as are in the same ballpark 30-30 Win and 243 Win and similar. 45-70 Gov should be about 3.31$ as well similar to 30-06. These are actual to date factory ammo Prices in Southamerica (PMC, Federal, American Eagle, etc.).

[M-Tecs]

Even at those price shooting the hogs with commercial 308 or 30/06 is still going to be cheaper that the laser range finders, optics and firearm required for long range BP hunting. Use the cast and BP for close and practice.

[AJG]

M TEC,

I gently disagree.
A few Pops cost you almost as much to pay of all reloading Equipment.
Let us say all reloading equipmnt costs 1000 US$. So. 1000 US$/2.94$= 340 rounds of 308 let us say. That is not worthed.
I rather have all reloading Equipment and the ability to reload multiple calibers than Shooting those sinfull expensive factory ammo.

It is no that there are anymore that much wild hogs around here. Their Population got reduced since everybody shoots them where they are finding them. Basically there are not anymore huntable (eatable) animals around here. So the shear joy and defense purposes, governement control Evasion, ammo independence are main purpose of Black Powder and reloading.

Believe me. The governemet does not like the idea someone is reloading. They are wanting to mark (laser mark) every round what is entering the Country to trace it and know who bought it. lready now you can only buy ammo if you have an Register Card for your gun (example. If you do not have an legal shotgun you can not buy shotgun ammo. If you do not have an 243 rifle you can not buy that ammo).

[M-Tecs]

With the cost of the lasers, optics and firearm to realistically and successfully achieve the distances you are talking you are talking $3,000 to $5,000 to start with.