More Questions: Grease Cookie/Felt Wad/Cork Wad

[DHDeal]

Being laid up for a week allows one to read too much. That and a new hobby in PPB's. Here is something I've noticed about what goes under the bullet, a wad stack.

Some like lube cookies, some like cork wads, some like felt, and some like ldpe wads. I am going to stick with target bore diameter loads here as I have no interest in hunting with these rifles.

What seems to be a pattern is most use some sort of material that provides either a shock absorber or provides a seal to the hot gas that keeps any flame cutting or leading from happening. Some have suggested that if it is a shock absorber, it would help prevent nose slumping.

I've seen more than a few top PPB experts write something such as I won't use a lube cookie, I'll only use a cork/felt/ldpe was. Or vice versa.

To a greater degree, aren't they all accomplishing a similar role. I also understand they are taking up space so a bullet can be seated out further. I understand a lube cookie in hunting loads where you'll "shoot dirty", but again, I'm only referring to target loads.

[Don McDowell]

It just depends on what you end up trying and liking. My shooting partner Eddie Hayes, shoots a grease cooky between a couple of thin fiber wads. I like the NAPA rubber cork and a felt wad. I have also shot a few loads with hard bullets and no wads, that did show promise.

[country gent]

I use Napa made rubber / fiber gasket material for the base wad 1/16" thick. I like the first wad to be a harder material to protect the base of the bullet from deformation. A thin grease cookie can be a plus helping to manage fouling and keep it soft. Another material that works well at times is playing cards they are plastic coated and resistant to lubes and oils. I also use a tracing paper wad or 2 on top of the stack. Your entering into a realm of experimenting and testing here, finding what works for you and your rifle. Randolph S. Wrights book, Loading and shooting the paper Patched Bullet a beginneers guide has alot of good information in it.

[DHDeal]

I may have just stated that water is wet to those of you that have been doing this for a long time, but it was interesting nonetheless.

I'll have to get some more supplies it seems. For the sake of the argument, some felpro cork, some F50 felt, and I'm going to run out of room......

Since it appears I'll get to try some extra wad stuffs, will the Cornell wad punch die punch out those cork and felt wads? I have the 40 caliber hammer operated noise producing punch already and know it well.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

dhdeal,
the kiss principle is worthy of consideration, due to minimizing work, and the fact that it often produces the best results anyway.
trying to seal the bore with wads is a wasted operation.
the bullet should do all the sealing necessary.
the purpose of the wad is to protect the base of the bullet in long range shooting.
if you are wiping, no lube wad is necessary, and is in fact a waste of good powder space.
wiping is what you need to do for target accuracy, the same summer and winter, so you have a practiced routine.
stacking wads is also a waste of powder space, unless you are running a very long case.
such things as cork cushion the blow of the igniting powder, reducing bumpup of the bullet.
a far better way to reduce bumpup to optimum is to make the bullet harder and use a thinner wad.
playing cards might be good in this area.
felt was useful in long range muzzle loaders for carrying a lot of oily lube which softened the fouling as the wad was seated, and semi wiped the barrel.
a waste of powder space in a cartridge, unless hunting.
if your chamber dimensions leave cases correctly sized, simply reprime, droptube and/or compress powder under a card or ldpe wad, and finger seat bullet 1/8" in case.
if you have a greaser chamber you will have to size the neck to suit the bullet if its base is bore diameter.
the better powders will work well at zero to 1/10" compression. avoid those that will not.
sometimes it pays to do some shooting as simply as you can for a while, and then work out what you need to buy.
if you have to size brass, baco expanders of the right diameter are most useful.
shock absorbers out - hard and thin in.
keep safe,
bruce.

[DHDeal]

Bruce,
Your reply was kind of what I was talking about, tongue in cheek. I was noticing that there are many ways to skin this PPB cat. I also saw quite a bit of mentioning patches being flame cut due to many possible factors (it seems after reading many many posts that improper/insufficient cleaning between shots was the man in culprit in that problem). Nose slump was mentioned a few times and using a harder alloy seems to be the newest trend.

For me, I'll start with what I have now which will be veggie fiber wads and or ldpe wads. I'll probably get some cork from the auto parts store for the heck of it, but will not start with them. I sure hope I don't need a lube cookie and saw very few stay with that set up after experimenting.

I've used Swiss powders since I started shooting grease groove bullets in 2002 and don't typically compress it other than to get a uniform seating depth. I do use a compression die, but it is more to seat my wad at a uniform depth. Some of my most accurate grease groove loads use parchment paper only as a wad. Even then, the bullets I recovered, show smooth bases.

Thanks for the reminder to keep it simple. I will start as simple as can.

My whole meandering initial post was noticing that many methods are used to accomplish a goal of protecting the bullet base and almost everybody does something different. At least that's what I tried to express.

For many years I've considered PPB entirely too much trouble and take too much time. I'm not so sure it is either now that I wipe between shots. It's the wiping that made me reconsider PPB in the first place.

Now where did I put that wad punch......

[Gunlaker]

I have found that the wads you need depend on the powder you are using, and to some extent, the alloy. A lube cookie has worked with every powder I've tried, to some degree. I've never had the best muzzle velocity SD's with them.

The best way I've found in all of my rifles is to fill the case with Swiss 1.5 and use a 0.060" LDPE wad. Sometimes I stick a thin fiber wad ( 0.030" or 0.060" ) under the LDPE.

When using OE 1.5, I need to use Kenny Wasserberger's more complex wad stack. It works very well with that powder.

I don't bother using any other powders, except every now and then I'll drag the .45-110's out and shoot them with some Goex Fg and a lube cookie. I have shot that setup in a couple of gong matches, but prefer the LDPE wads and Swiss.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE]if your chamber dimensions leave cases correctly sized, simply reprime, droptube and/or compress powder under a card or ldpe wad, and finger seat bullet 1/8" in case.
/QUOTE]

But? what if that particular bullet actually shoots better with a cork and a felt wad and a news paper wad under it, or no wads, seated nearly .4 into the case?
Blanket statements simply don't apply any better in this bpcr stuff than it does in the smokeless world. Each bullet, rifle and such will show a preference for a certain load combination.
Trying different combinations until you get the accuracy level you want is the only way to go.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

don, that was not a blanket statement, but rather suggesting a starting point.
it might well be as far as you need to go.
smokeless is often very similar in that simple is often best, hence an obvious place to start.
often, if you have to take fancy measures, something else is wrong and they work because you are using a zag to compensate for a zig.
I will repeat however that if you need soft wads for target shooting your bullets are too soft.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I pour most of my slicks from 16-1. I also operate on the principal that soft fouling cleans out quicker than hard fouling.
If a person is using a grease cooky and able to shoot very good scores, such as my friend Eddie does, it's a real big stretch to say something is wrong with the load.
The felt wads I use are dry lubed, with the lube incorporated in the making of the material.
There is quite a bit of reference to using felt wads in the writings from the ODG's.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

don,
if it works, do it.
however, start at the simplest level.
16:1 is not a hard alloy.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

16-1 does seem to work well. It's interesting to see the various bullets the ODG's used. John Bodine said he preferred nothing harder than 15-1.

[semtav]

I used to do wad test to see what each load liked. every load and gun was different. sometimes it was as simple as an .030 ldpe wad, sometimes an .030 ldpe wad over a .030 veg wad. that was running a full case of compress swiss 1 1/2 . so start out with the simplest and test it against more complex ones. Nobody can tell you what is going to work best with your load.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

don,
bodine was one of the early shooters. with the 44s and 90 gns of powder, 20:1 was considered ok.
the fact that he mentions 15:1 suggests that the march toward harder bullets was underway.
later factory ammo and the writings of such as maj hinman suggest that 14:1 was at the soft end.
semtav,
exactly. start at the simplest level and use that as a control.
you do not know what will be best until you try it.
however statistically history suggests that the vast majority of long range shooters in the day got best results with the simplest approach.
hard bullet, thin hard wad, and droptubed charge of slow powder.
today people seem to just deny the results of history without having tried the techniques.
these include hard bullets and breech seating.
buffalo shooting and creedmoor are 2 different things and require different techniques.
keep safe,
bruce.

[semtav]

I haven't tried the breech seating (yet) but I sure like the hard bullets and thin wads. But that's for groove dia. No experience with bore dia.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I've not seen 20-1 mentioned by the ODG's. Lots of 14-1, and even some at 11-1. There were quite a few listed that muzzleloaded their cartridge rifles.
There is but a small handful of us that shoot the target rifle with patched and even fewer that shoot silloutte with patched.
Are you coming over to the International match in 17? Looking like the BPTR national championship will be in late August at the Whittington Center.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

don, 20:1 is mentioned in one of kurt's recent links called 35 years of rifle practice, in conjunction with 90 gns of powder.
this would suggest a 44 cal for long range, as the 45s were all 100 gns or more.
being a 44 would put that alloy in the earlier years of long range shooting.
the writer also mentions bullets not being seated in the case, suggesting breech seating, although it could also allude to muzzle loading.
he also mentions bullets barely seated in the case.
it is a pity that so few people try to perfect pp shooting, as rewards are to be had for effort and thought, one of which is immense satisfaction.
I think it was Kenny who referred to us as "nut cases", a term of honour in this case.
I was coming to phoenix this year until they changed it to a coached shoot.
the reason is understandable and logical, but I prefer shooters all reading their own wind in a comp.
if finances permit, eron amer's shoot looks to be the most inviting.
there is also some international deal coming up in Canada, but the dcra does not seem to want to answer emails.
last week I shot 800 meters (metric equivalent of 900 yds) and next week 900 meters (= 1000 yds) with fullbore shooters.
I suspect I am getting demented, as I recently completely missed a change.
to get over there would be primarily a way to meet all you guys who have become defacto friends over the years.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

Bruce I think that international match in Ottawa will draw some talented shooters. I have never shot there as it's about 2500 miles from my house, but will give some thought to attending that match. Apparently it's an excellent facility.

Eron's match is very good too of course.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce there is the possibility they will be holding the Cup match at Lodi in the fall of 17.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

don,
will that be self coached or coached by spotters?
keep safe,
bruce.