Lil' Gun powder in a 357 Maximum?

[hornady308]

I use Lil Gun in a 10" 357 Max Contender, a 357 Mag Handi rifle and a 357 Mag Rossi 92. These are deer hunting rigs where the emphasis is on slow shooting and top accuracy. I fire a round, wait a minute, then fire the next. My barrels don't get hot and I don't use Lil Gun in revolvers.

[45r]

I use lil gun in 450 bushmaster.
Half inch groups at 100 yards using 225 ftx with side crimp and then taper crimp into cannalure.
Highest velocity with lowest ES and excellent accuracy.
Don't do mag dumps so will keep using it.
My tromix barrel loves 38 grains seated to 2.12 and rem 7 1/2 primers
Tracking isn't needed most of the time.
I'd use it in my max but it likes imr 4227 the best for accuracy.

[curioushooter]

I want to update some info I have learned about Lil'Gun. It is actually more effecient with lower charges in 357 Max.

I was using 24 grains to push a 180 grain XTP (yes, I still use jacketed for deer, as I have never worked with hollow point cast bullets, and my observation of cast bullets in this caliber is they pass clean through deer at even moderate velocities) in a 10" contender. Was getting 1750-1800 FPS. To use this much LG you need to seat the bullet way out well beyond what would work in even a Ruger revolver (with long cylinders). I thought this was pretty nifty, as I was approaching 357 Herrett performance with a lot less powder.

Then I came across some Data in the Hornady Guide To reloading. They maxed their contender in max at 21.5, which is 90%+ load density when you crimp the 180 XTP at the groove (they have just one groove now, formerly the groove for revolvers). I figured what the heck, crimp it even though it is no needed in a Contender (mine is actually a G2).

Well, I was quite interested to see that I was still getting 1750-1800 FPS. I use CCI small rifle magnum primers with LG. Less powder, same velocity. AND SEEMINGLY BETTER ACCURACY. I was ringing an 8" gong from pretty much any range to 100 yards. Never did any bench work though.

Another powder that seem to have potential in the max is this Alliant 300-MP. If it can do in the Max what it does in a Mag, then it would surpass LG in my estimation. Wouldn't do it in a revolver though.

[Gohon]

Seeing how Lil'Gun is a medium burning powder three or four grains of your 24 grain load was most likely just blown out the end of a 10 inch barrel un-burned. In a rifle barrel you would most likely get a complete burn with that load and higher velocities. Just a thought...

[curioushooter]

That's my conclusion...that or not being crimped allowed to bullet to fly forward with the primer instead of corking up the little gun long enough to get lit.

[MT Gianni]

I want to update some info I have learned about Lil'Gun. It is actually more effecient with lower charges in 357 Max.

I was using 24 grains to push a 180 grain XTP (yes, I still use jacketed for deer, as I have never worked with hollow point cast bullets, and my observation of cast bullets in this caliber is they pass clean through deer at even moderate velocities) in a 10" contender. Was getting 1750-1800 FPS. To use this much LG you need to seat the bullet way out well beyond what would work in even a Ruger revolver (with long cylinders). I thought this was pretty nifty, as I was approaching 357 Herrett performance with a lot less powder.

Then I came across some Data in the Hornady Guide To reloading. They maxed their contender in max at 21.5, which is 90%+ load density when you crimp the 180 XTP at the groove (they have just one groove now, formerly the groove for revolvers). I figured what the heck, crimp it even though it is no needed in a Contender (mine is actually a G2).

Well, I was quite interested to see that I was still getting 1750-1800 FPS. I use CCI small rifle magnum primers with LG. Less powder, same velocity. AND SEEMINGLY BETTER ACCURACY. I was ringing an 8" gong from pretty much any range to 100 yards. Never did any bench work though.

Another powder that seem to have potential in the max is this Alliant 300-MP. If it can do in the Max what it does in a Mag, then it would surpass LG in my estimation. Wouldn't do it in a revolver though.

A former member did a lot with 300MP and the Max. It is on this site if you search for it.

[MT Chambers]

There are many good powders in this burning range, Lil Gun gave some pressure excursions when I tested it in my .300 Whisper, so now I'm testing CFE Black, but many others have worked well: 4100 1680 300MP, etc.

[curioushooter]

1680 I would think would need a heavier bullet than 180 two work well in Max. A 200-240 grainer. Think about that fellas... A 240 grain .357 bullet going 1600 FPS or greater from a handgun! 44 Mag recoil with better external ballistics and equal or better terminal performance with expansion.
I need to get some 300 MP...there are so many complaints of this powder though.

[NSB]

1680 I would think would need a heavier bullet than 180 two work well in Max. A 200-240 grainer. Think about that fellas... A 240 grain .357 bullet going 1600 FPS or greater from a handgun! 44 Mag recoil with better external ballistics and equal or better terminal performance with expansion.
I need to get some 300 MP...there are so many complaints of this powder though.

I've got pages of data recorded on a lot of different powders and bullets used in the 357max. This year I added one more, 1680 powder out of my MGM barrel. I'm getting right around 2300fps (chrono) with 158g XTP bullets and they shoot great. They do not blow up or fragment in any of the deer I shot although I only recovered one bullet from three deer. Two were complete pass-throughs with huge exit holes. It showed outstanding expansion, totally held together, and performed as good as you could ever want it to. I'm getting right around 1moa at 100 yards for five shots. So far, it's about the best I've found for the 357max. I do have some that rival it though. Note: 2400fps on card was estimate. Actual speed was 2287-2317fps.

Attachment 233363

[curioushooter]

I am assuming those are the 158 XTP FPs (the ones with the tiny hole meant for higher velocity). That is (REALLY...basically 35 Remington!) impressive velocity, but that expanded bullet looks hardly any different the regular 158 XTP out of a 357 Mag revolver, which I have put trough a few deer and many 20L saline bladders filled with water. Seems like it did the job though!

I have no problem getting 1800 FPS with 180 grain XTPs using Lil'Gun in a 10" Contender. 21.5 grains will do it!

The thing with my Max barrel is that it has this enormous conical (really comical) throat. I am sure it is part of the reason it doesn't really shoot all that great (compared to my 30-20 barrel and 22LR barrel). My idea is to use longer cast bullets that will snug into lands. To be that long they are going to be heavy. The NOE 360-230-RF (ranch dog) design looks really promising to me.

Problem is I can't find any AA1680 load data past 200 grains. I sent Accurate an email...maybe they can cough up a start load for me. Then again maybe not. It seems that AA1680 is about the optimal burn rate with that heavy bullet in a relatively (for a Contender) short barrel.

[NSB]

No, it's a regular XTP, not the FP. You can get another 200fps or so using the FP but I don't see the point. It's fast enough as it is. I've been using 180 XTP's for a while in the MAX, but wanted to see what the lighter bullets would do. After this year I think I'm going to stay with the 158's. I don't see any down side to them at all.

[curioushooter]

I used the regular 358 XTPs with some regularity in the 357 Herrett. It blew them apart when I ran it at full power out of a 14" barrel. Then I switched the FP XTPs (which are actually a tiny hollopoint with a very thick jacket). They held together much better but their expaded diameter was basically the same. In fact, the expaned diameter of all the 358 XTPs is basically the same no matter what velocity. I've never tried a 125 grain, but the 140, 158XTP, 158XTPFP, and 180 all end up the same...it's just that the 180 goes much deeper potentially.

From left: 140 grain XTP from 5" 357 Mag revolver, 158 grain XTP from same revolver, 180 grain XTP from 10" 357 Max Contender. Bullets recovered from water saturated plastic "hoosier clay." It is this which makes me think that the ideal weight for 357 Magnum is between 140-158 grains. The recoil from the 140s is less despite driving it 100 FPS faster or so. I keep my revolvers to the new 35k PSI limit, so the 140s are lucky to be going 1400 FPS. THe 158s are going around 1200-1250 usually. That 180 was being pushed by 21.5 grains of Lil'Gun and clocking 1750-1800 FPS. It goes to show you how sturdy the 180s are by comparison. At these velocities the 158 XTPs were leaving the jacket behind and the core would be another few inches in the clay. The 158XTPFP would stay together. Unfortunately I do not have one to show.

[curioushooter]

I am assuming you mean the member 357Maximum right? I have two questions. One where is this thread where he lists load data for 300MP in the max. And two why was he banned?

[curioushooter]

Did some follow up testing with said bullets in 357 Magnum carbine. The 158 Grain Hornady XTPHP does not hold up well at high velocites in calibrated ballistic gelatin. The 158 Grain XTPFP is much better, but even that bullet sheds 20% of its weight at 1900 FPS.
I think the 180 grain Hornady XTP is the queen of the J-word .357s for deer. It holds together at the maximum velocities achievable with a 357 Mag carbine or 357 Max contender (1700-1800 FPS). It also expands all the way down to 1000FPS. It is also capable of consistently deep penetration of over 16" across the velocity range of 1000-1800 FPS. It also expands to a slightly greater diameter than either of the 158 offerings.
One thing to keep in mind is that more velocity doesn't always increase performance. It can cause such bullets to over-expand and not penetrate sufficiently or it can cause fragmentation.
At these velocities cast boolits work quite well. I've tested two a 170 grain WFN gas check and a 184 WFN gas check. The rub with cast boolits is that they have a narrower performance window, meaning the velocity at which they will not expand and the velocity where they will either under-penetrate or fragement is narrower. It seems that with basically any boolit with flattish nose profile like a SWC or a WFN will begin to expand around 1400 FPS depending upon alloy hardness (though to prevent leading a fairly hard alloy like 91-6-3 pb-sn-sb is needed). The upper limit to velocity I am not so sure of however more boolit weight is needed to ensure adequate penetration. They do hold together better than j-words as a rule as they are monolithic in construction. The downside is that copper jacket is hard and arrests the expansion. A cast boolit wants to turn itself inside out and if it isn't long enough it will.
The biggest problem I have so far is that cast boolits do not deliver first shot accuracy like jacketed do. I tend to get a shot a bit off from the cold barrel with cast (probably lube issue). The second and subsequent are on until fouling or some other issue degrades the accuracy. Wish I could find an all-weather loob that delivered first shot accuracy.

[NSB]

I've never blown one apart and I've shot a lot of deer with the .357mag and .357max......a LOT of deer. Never drew a tag for ballistic gel. How do you cook it?

[curioushooter]

How do you cook it?

It's already cooked, and if you ever made Jello as a kid its the same process basically.

My bullcrap-o-meter is also pegging because I know the performance of the XTP very well. I've put plenty of XTPs through deer too, both the .357s and the .429s and I've blown many apart at rifle velocities. There is also a situation that isn't quite blowing up but the bullet sheds a lot of material and messes up meat. I like to see 99% retention personally, and cast boolits manage this easily. IMO its their principle advantage besides cost. The JHPs struggle usually getting around 80% retention when you push them near the design limit. And and the bottom end you usually don't get very impressive expansion (like .45" for a .357).

The exceptions are the 180 grain 357 XTPHP (rated to 1700 FPS) and the 158 grain XTPFP (rated to 1800FPS). These are the JHPs to use in a 357 Mag carbine or 357 Max handgun. Though I've never tested it the 158 Sierra JSP seems like it would work ok. I've found that 170 grain and heavier cast WFN boolits work well too. Their principle problem is that they have a much higher lower velocity limit. At around 1400 FPS cast boolits without a hollowpoint don't expand much or at all and tend to overpenetrate and made a very unimpressive initial wound zone. Cast hollopoints have their problem on the top side. They expand very well at low velocities but break apart at velocities above 1400 or so. 1600 seems to be certain. They don't have that jacket of hard copper keeping them together. I am going to experiment with copper-fortified boolit alloys next year.

Gel gives a much better way to compare because you can see it and it can be made deep enough to stop the bullet. It's also consistent. Sometimes you get bad data from actual kill shots on game because of poor shot placement or hitting a bone or something.

I don't understand the antagonism people have for gel. I suspect it is because they feel threatened that their pet load or projectile or caliber won't be found to be as good as they imagined and they would rather pretend it was great than actually know what is effective.

It was disappointment with performance that led me to undertake these experiments. What I have found is that much of the common knowledge regarding the matter is as erroneous.

[kingrj]

Thinking about this whole "burns too hot" thing, I am puzzled. First off the "thing" that accelerates the bullet down the barrel is pressure. That pressure curve can be short in the case of something like Bullseye or longer in the case of H110..It is the heat generated by the burning powder that creates this pressure "curve"....Looking at load data (I have never used Lil'gun my self) between Lil'gun and H110 I see charge weights very close in some cartridges with Lil'gun seeming to produce similar velocities with slightly lower charge weights but at the same peak pressures. This would indicate to me that Lil'gun has a slightlly higher specific energy level (probably a little more nitrogliycerin)..but if Lil'gun produces that much more heat than H110 for about the same charge weight the pressure generated would have to be much higher. I mean physics is physics...But the pressures and velocities are very close to those achieved with H110. So I don't get it....How can you shoot H110 in a gun all day long and the gun never get warm but a cylinder full of Lil'gun loads using the same bullet at the same velocity at the same peak pressure nearly melts the gun? I DO understand the errosion effect of powders and that was the main reason the Ruger .357 Max was taken off the market due to flame cutting of the top strap...but this heat thing is a mystery to me...I wish someone would please explain it...And if you can explain how Lil'gun violates the ideal gas law of PV=nRT then you need to start working on identifying dark matter! LOL!

[kingrj]

So..I guess nobody is going to help me out here..Look..it is ok if you don't understand physics..but please don't propogate old wives tales...

[curioushooter]

Kingrj...it's not that people don't understand physics.

There are two issues. One is that Hogdon doesn't tell us everything. Win296 (which I understand is identical to H110) and Lil'Gun are both powders I've worked with. They are pretty different too. LG is less dense, more granular, and does seem to heat up barrels for whatever reason more quickly. It was meant as a 410 shotgun powder (where I have used it and also in 357 Max and 357 Mag). I do not use it in revolvers for this reason and also because it's too slow to work well in revolvers. Win296 is on the edge of being too slow IMO. 2400 is the slowest powder I like to use in a revolver. Now in a 10" Contender LG is a fine powder and if it destroys the barrel I'll buy another one. It certainly has outperformed in velocity all other powders in 357 Max that I have tried. But it does heat them up faster...it just does. The difference is noticeable. LG is also a fine powder to use in a 410. I've not tried 300MP or Alliant 410 but LG is heads and shoulders above the slower shotgun magnum powders and 2400 in heavy loads with 3" shells.
The other issue is that there is basically no reason to bother really investigating the issue. It comes down to if you want to use LG or not given these suspicions, as it will probably take a long time to confirm if LG is really a barrel destroyer or not. I don't use it expect in 410 shotgun and 357 Max contender, which if it messes up the barrel it's not a big deal.

[whisler]

Kingrj: I think you are trying to compare the behavior of an ideal gas to something completely different; the production of a volume of gas by a chemical reaction - combustion. Just because similar weights of 2 different materials produce the same volume of gas during combustion does not mean that the heat of combustion is equal. As a matter of fact it would be rare that they were equal.