Lil' Gun powder in a 357 Maximum?

[Hang Fire]

When Ruger came out with the .357 max in the Super Blackhawk. it would erode the top strap. The powder used for loads was what many laid the blame on.

[44man]

Powder and bullet weight did not matter. I shot 200 gr rifle bullets and 4227 and had the slot. Ruger found it only got so deep and stopped.
It was due to extreme high pressure through a small gap. Like they cut steel today with high pressure water jets. It was a mechanical cutting, not heat.
S&W had a problem when they made the funny alloys and put a steel insert in that could be replaced.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive damaged forcing cones from excessive use of hot loaded ball powders so I KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN. If you don't think so well then your probably not shooting enough or are shooting low pressure stuff. Bob Baker has actually seen gun wear from lilgun powder. Yes the 454 is an extreme case in its own because of pressures but its happened in other calibers too. Use what you want in your guns. Me I think its silly to even bother with lilgun. You can get the same ballistics and accuracy with other powders so why would I even want to TAKE A CHANCE that I'm going to screw up a 2000 dollar gun and have the warrantee voided. Or for that matter even screw up a 500 dollar ruger that I will be without for months while its getting rebarreled?

Of course heat melts steel.....that's how the barrels are formed. But rapid shooting never comes close to reaching those temperatures except maybe with a belt fed machine gun. The temperature at which a human feels a burn to their hand is 150-170F. Here is a test where 100 rounds were shot in rapid succession and the highest temperature recorded was 229F after five 20 round clips. http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/0611.htm So two 20 round magazines rapidly shot from a Mini14 or AR15 may hit the 150 degree mark and burn ones hand but it won't be melting steel. I suspect though that accuracy will go to pot until the barrel cools back down. Not trying to argue but just think the term "heat melts steel" is misleading and inaccurate for this subject. I still think the main contributing factor to throat erosion in a pistol or revolver is the sandblast effect of some powders with heat being a less factor. Just my opinion....

BTW...I don't think FA's claim is bogus but I do think they may not be tell everyone the full data.

[dtknowles]

ive damaged forcing cones from excessive use of hot loaded ball powders so I KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN. If you don't think so well then your probably not shooting enough or are shooting low pressure stuff. Bob Baker has actually seen gun wear from lilgun powder. Yes the 454 is an extreme case in its own because of pressures but its happened in other calibers too. Use what you want in your guns. Me I think its silly to even bother with lilgun. You can get the same ballistics and accuracy with other powders so why would I even want to TAKE A CHANCE that I'm going to screw up a 2000 dollar gun and have the warrantee voided. Or for that matter even screw up a 500 dollar ruger that I will be without for months while its getting rebarreled?

So could this forcing cone damage occur with H110? I guess it is good that I have Dan Wesson revolvers, a barrel change takes 5 minutes and I can repair a forcing cone in less than 30 minutes and in less than a hour I can turn an 8 inch barrel into a 6 inch barrel. Is their a forcing cone geometry that is less susceptible to this damage?

Tim

[MT Gianni]

When Ruger came out with the .357 max in the Super Blackhawk. it would erode the top strap. The powder used for loads was what many laid the blame on.

This was generally attributed to ball powders and 110 and 125 gr bullets. Many powders put a groove behind the top strap. Several well known writers were of the opinion Bob Melik caused the whole shut down because he was so invested in the 30 and 357 Herrett cartridges he could not stand the heat of another high speed 35 piston in a revolver no less. The problem fixes it self when the groove hits the depth that the gasses have cooled below erosion temps. It is also fixed with sticking to bullets weighing 165 gr+. Darn shame Ruger didn't stick with the gun.

[dtknowles]

This was generally attributed to ball powders and 110 and 125 gr bullets. Many powders put a groove behind the top strap. Several well known writers were of the opinion Bob Melik caused the whole shut down because he was so invested in the 30 and 357 Herrett cartridges he could not stand the heat of another high speed 35 piston in a revolver no less. The problem fixes it self when the groove hits the depth that the gasses have cooled below erosion temps. It is also fixed with sticking to bullets weighing 165 gr+. Darn shame Ruger didn't stick with the gun.

My Ruger Single Six has a groove on the inside of the top strap at the cylinder gap. Could it have been caused by gas cutting from .22 Mag.

Tim

[Lloyd Smale]

yup light bullets and ball powders tend to wear on forcing cones. Lil gun is much worse the 110/296 but 110/296 or aa9 will do it too.

This was generally attributed to ball powders and 110 and 125 gr bullets. Many powders put a groove behind the top strap. Several well known writers were of the opinion Bob Melik caused the whole shut down because he was so invested in the 30 and 357 Herrett cartridges he could not stand the heat of another high speed 35 piston in a revolver no less. The problem fixes it self when the groove hits the depth that the gasses have cooled below erosion temps. It is also fixed with sticking to bullets weighing 165 gr+. Darn shame Ruger didn't stick with the gun.

[44man]

Yes you will get sandblasting on a cone. It is powder not ignited yet that hits the edges. But it does no damage in the cone and mine is still smooth and shiny when cleaned. I found it does not hurt how the gun shoots at all.
The cut is from gas pressure, My .44 has no marks on the top strap. My loads are just short of brass sticking. Same in every caliber from .44 to .500.
A bullet hitting a cone off center will eat the throats oblong, eat the side of the cone and enter into the rifling. NOT the same as heat either.
The cut in a top strap is 100% mechanical pressure. So is most leading.
To melt steel is another thing.

[fatelvis]

After reading all the responses, I take it that Lil Gun is not good for revolver use, but seems that it would be OK in my contender. Am I wrong?


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[44man]

Might be but is still hot. Why would a gap in a revolver make it worse? I would not use it.

[BAGTIC]

This sounds like the same problem the .357 Maximum had in Ruger's Blackhawk handgun way back when. Heavy charges behind light bullets.

[BAGTIC]

Where and when are the temperatures being measured. The inside of the bore will be hotter than the outside of the barrel and the temperature while combustion is still continuing wil be higher than after pressure has already begun to decrease.

[Lloyd Smale]

Depends on how you use your contender. If its strickly a hunting gun and probably would see 500 rounds in its life I wouldn't worry to much about it. But if its a varmit rig that gets that many rounds shot in a year id ditch the lilgun. When I first quit it in my handguns I figured id use it up in my 22 hornet rifle but it is such a good shooting gun that my fears of destroying that accuracy made me stop that too. I ended up giving about 5lbs remaining in a keg to a buddy who loads it in his guns (that are lucky to be shot 20 shots a year let alone a 100 in one day. I told him about it and he went running off with it with a big smile on his face. To me its just wasn't worth the chance of damaging something. To many other good powders that don't have that problem.

After reading all the responses, I take it that Lil Gun is not good for revolver use, but seems that it would be OK in my contender. Am I wrong?


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[44man]

Heat is cumulative so a shot here and there with time should be OK. Like a big rifle, shoot a few and wait to cool before more. Lil'gun adds heat faster and scares me. Nobody shoots a revolver with 10 or 20 minutes between shots. Even group shooting with a Tender will not be slow enough.
The .357 we used it in was a Freedom, 6 shots and then a sight adjustment and 6 more, not fast. If you need to solder a sight on, shoot Lil'gun.

[fatelvis]

I planned on shooting silhouette with my Contender, and lots of plinking, so I'm going to steer clear of using Lil Gun.


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[44man]

I planned on shooting silhouette with my Contender, and lots of plinking, so I'm going to steer clear of using Lil Gun.


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I don't like the 4227's but they work in the Max. Best EVER in them.

[curioushooter]

My first exposure to Lil'Gun was in 357 magnum rifles. It is really and outstanding top-performance powder in such firearms, approaching 30-30 muzzle energy. It seems to need 158 grains or heavier, and to also need at least a small-pistol magnum primer if not a small-rifle primer.

My second exposure to Lil'Gun was in my 357 maximum 10" Contender. Here it is also outstanding. I had been using Winchester 296 for a long time in various cartridges for the Contender from 375 Win, to 32-20, to 357 Herrett. Lil'Gun is similar to 296, but it has a very paradoxical characteristic that makes it outstanding and unique as far as I know. It somehow is a FASTER burning powder than Win 296 yet has lower chamber pressures with the same charges and bullet weights. This gives it an edge in handguns. Even with 10" of barrel, there can be unburnt powder sometimes with 296. LG doesn't do this as bad a Win 296.

Another advantage to LG is that it seems more temperature stable to me. Win 296 can be quite alarming when you are working at the top end. It can seem to get over-max on hot days. Win 296 is actually slightly more dense that LG, too. LG is more efficient, achieving the same velocities with less powder in shorter barrels AND seems more stable.

As far as accuracy goes, I've found both powders to have better accuracy than other limiting factors. In general, I believe this is the case with all powders. Having properly fit, consistent bullets and properly weighed charges with consistent ignition are far more important factors in my opinion.

As far as revolvers go, I don't use either powder in my S&W model 28. My experience is that in any non-sealed breech firearm if pressures get beyond 40k you will start to get alarming discharges from the gap. And the velocities are hardly any better than traditional powders like 2400, Blue Dot. In fact, in my 4" barreled smith, Win 296 just shoots out the front and it goes only nominally faster than Blue Dot. In standard barreled 357 mag revolver using 158s or heavier, I really think it is hard to improve on 2400 or Blue Dot.

[Moleman-]

I use alot of it in my 357AR (rimless 357Maximum at 223 pressures) , 44x1.6" and 44x1.8" rifles. This came up last fall so I got an endoscope and looked at the leade in those rifles that had been shot the most and have been keeping an eye on them as the round counts goes up. The leades looked about the same as when I'd cut them. The 357AR and 44x1.8" are all in the 50K-60K PSI range and were shot semiauto. Not a ton of rounds, but easily at 1800+ rounds my sons 357AR rifle likely has the most rounds through it. Likely about a third of the 1800+ rounds were W296, about a 1/3 were LilGun and the rest broken up between 2400, IMR4227, Bluedot, and a couple other powders. I'm happy with it and will continue to use it.

[curioushooter]

Hey, Moleman, check out Accurate 11FS powder. It may be an even better performer vs. Lil'Gun.

[303Guy]

With Lil'Gun my hornet got as hot, as quickly, as does a 303 Brit. Even the can got hot. Then I made a loading mistake and upped the already compressed charge by .1 grain from 13.6 to 13.7 grains and the barrel stayed cool! Go figure. I figured the can was getting hot from secondary burn so why it stayed cool as well is a mystery. For the hornet, there is no better performance powder but then the charge is heavily compressed which likely slows the initial burn rate. I won't use it in my 303's - pressures go sky high very quickly, giving me a stiff bolt lift with a mere 10 grs. It's weird stuff.