Lil' Gun powder in a 357 Maximum?

[fatelvis]

Looking through the powder selections on Quickload, it sure looks like Lil'Gun powder would be a winner in my 12" Contender using a 358627 GC boolit. Does anyone use this powder and like/love it? Any downsides to using it? I'm not familiar with this powder. Thanks!

[NSB]

I bought a pound of it two years ago and played with it in 357mag and 357max. It shot just "ok" , but not great. I tried a lot of different bullets with it and it never shot as well as my best loads using other powders. That's just my experience, maybe not shared with others. I ended up giving the rest of the can away to a friend and he said the same thing. Guess you'll have to try it for yourself to find out.

[44man]

It is HOT burning, 12 shots from a .357 made the barrel so hot it could not be touched. The rest of mine will be for the 410. Freedom will not honor the warranty if you use it. It will erode steel.

[fatelvis]

It will erode steel.

Really? Well that certainly is a downside to using this powder.

[dragon813gt]

Really? Well that certainly is a downside to using this powder.

Yes, FA has proven that it erodes the forcing cone. You will have lots of people say the claim is bogus. Between the erosion and heat issues I will not use it. It heats a barrel up like no other powder I've ever used. I realize all powders will heat the barrel up but I physically couldn't touch the barrel on an 1894C after a somewhat quick mag dump.

[DougGuy]

As far as the claims of erosion, gotta realize that a full house load in a Casull revolver is what is generating these reports. I have used full house Ruger Only loads in a Vaquero in .45 Colt but we are talking 30kpsi max compared to 65kpsi and that right there is a SIGNIFICANT difference. It heated up the Vaquero pretty good after just one cylinder full.

The .357 Max is safe to 40kpsi which again is a LOT less likely to erode steel than 65kpsi so I would think you are below the level of destruction witnessed in the Casull forcing cone if you want to try it.

I used LilGun to download my RF boolits in .45 Colt to about 85% of the Ruger Only max loads, something that is not quite possible to do without downloading W296/H110 below suggested minimum starting weights, and this endeavor worked out quite well. I have an accurate, clean burning hunting load that is significantly less punishing than the full house H110 loads I was using before trying the LilGun powder.

The claim to fame for LilGun, is that it gets the same velocities as W296/H110 but does so with less peak pressure. So far my experience with it is that it does do what they claim it does.

For me, it's great under very heavy boolits, it DOES like a heavy crimp, seems the added resistance of case tension and heavy crimp and a 320gr boolit gets better ignition the longer the time between firing and when the boolit actually pulls crimp and starts moving.

I'll continue to use it in my less than max loads for heavy boolits, it seems to have found a niche here, and erosion won't ever be an issue, my revolver is already Taylor throated to relieve a very severe thread choke.

[BAGTIC]

A check of my reference show that the relative heat per mass of L'il Gun is 4090 , H110 is 4110, 2400 is 4220, Blue Dot is 4380, and Power Pistol is 5515.

Any increase in gun heating is probably due not to flame temperature but to larger charges.

[44man]

My understanding is the powder has little flame suppressant coating. It does get to velocity with lower pressures but pressure is not not the same. All powders can exceed the melting point of steel but it is how and when, where. Time counts.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I've used it in .357 mag with the 358249 boolit. Works great. It may heat the barrel faster, but I usually don't shoot them that fast. For heavy boolits in a rifle or long barreled handgun, I think it is great. I have seen no erosion, but then I've only shot a few hundred. I like that it generates good velocity with lower pressures.

[sw282]

Hottest powder l have ever used.. 200 rds Hornady FTX 140GR in 357 loaded with the stuff sit on my ammo shelf now...Shooting Lil Gun loaded ammo got my S&W Model 27 almost boiling...Wont shoot any of them more.. Likely break them down or sell

[376Steyr]

I use Lil Gun in Skeeter Skelton 357 loads: 38 Special case/358158 seated long/15.5 grs Lil Gun (versus 13.5 of 2400 in the original). I've noticed no ill effects so far. I get 1200 fps with the Lil Gun loads, the same as with the original recipe. This load is less than a maximum load, though.

[Lloyd Smale]

did a test in my 50 Beowulf one day. Loaded 10 rounds up with lil gun and 10 with wc297. After 10 shots as fast as you could pull the trigger using 297 the barrel was obviously hot but you could give it a quick touch and it wasn't smoking. After 10 with lilgun it was smoking and so hot id bet you could have about lit a cigarette off of it. I wont use it in ANYTHING anymore. It might work fine in a gun like a 22 hornet bolt that's shot very slowly but id bet even in a gun like that if it could be measured, it would erode more then something like 110 or 4227.

[44man]

My SBH has exceeded 81,000 heavy loads, IHMSA, practice and hunting up to 330 gr boolits and has no measurable wear, no end shake or damage. Only the small sand blasting on the cone edges.
Only 296 all these years. It still shoots as good as ever.
I don't think I will be changing.

[Parson]

It's been several years so I don't remember everything but I used a 200gr gas checked hard cast bullet (2 parts lino and 1 part soft) heavy dose of Little Gun (don't remember how much). Out of 10 in. Contender did 1950fps, blew 200 yard chickens clean off the rail

[Gohon]

As far as the claims of erosion, gotta realize that a full house load in a Casull revolver is what is generating these reports.

That's pretty much it in a nut shell. I've proven to myself that Lil'Gun does burn hotter than most powders but I don't buy that the heat is what is eroding steel. What FA doesn't tell you is they were were using max loads behind light for weight bullets. In effect it was a sand blasting effect of the ball powder eroding the forcing cone. Think about it...those shooting the 357 magnum or 357 maximum in rifles never report this kind of problem.

I load a lot of Lil'Gun in the 22 Hornet and sometimes for the 357 magnum rifles but I use other powders in the Maximum because of better accuracy.

[44man]

We used 180 gr bullets/boolits in the .357 at less then max loads. Working with any combination of weights showed HEAT. Sandblasting is just not the same thing.
What ruins a .220 Swift or other high volume capacity cartridge? Heat erosion. Barrel life gets short.
The best I found for the max is the 4227's but I hate it in a .44.
Fact is plain, extruded powder or ball powder in a revolver still has powder pushed that is not being burned until past the cone. Both will sandblast. Not happening in a rifle or single shot but heat still melts steel. Throats are shot out so a rifle shooter seats longer until the barrel needs replaced or set back.
Use what you want, But my guns cost much and I can't replace or fix them. They must last my lifetime.

[Gohon]

Of course heat melts steel.....that's how the barrels are formed. But rapid shooting never comes close to reaching those temperatures except maybe with a belt fed machine gun. The temperature at which a human feels a burn to their hand is 150-170F. Here is a test where 100 rounds were shot in rapid succession and the highest temperature recorded was 229F after five 20 round clips. http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/0611.htm So two 20 round magazines rapidly shot from a Mini14 or AR15 may hit the 150 degree mark and burn ones hand but it won't be melting steel. I suspect though that accuracy will go to pot until the barrel cools back down. Not trying to argue but just think the term "heat melts steel" is misleading and inaccurate for this subject. I still think the main contributing factor to throat erosion in a pistol or revolver is the sandblast effect of some powders with heat being a less factor. Just my opinion....

BTW...I don't think FA's claim is bogus but I do think they may not be tell everyone the full data.

[dragon813gt]

The temperature at which a human feels a burn to their hand is 150-170F.

Boy are you off on that one. 130 will cause a third degree burn in fifteen seconds. 156 will cause a third degree burn in one second. Stick your hand under some hot tap water. Even at 120 a good portion of people will pull their hand out immediately. It's a response we can't control. Our instincts kick in to protect our body.

[44man]

Just about every powder exceeds the melting point of steel but exposure is so short, no damage is done, even a paper wad will not burn or plastic melt, boolits do not melt.
But if it builds up faster then the barrel can shed heat, you have a problem. Lil'gun seems to get hot right fast and concentrate heat too much. It is like passing your hand through a flame or holding it in the flame.
It is said lower pressure for the same velocity---WELL so what? You try to protect your gun from pressure when our guns are so strong, so you over heat them, doesn't make sense.

[Gohon]

Boy are you off on that one. 130 will cause a third degree burn in fifteen seconds. 156 will cause a third degree burn in one second. Stick your hand under some hot tap water. Even at 120 a good portion of people will pull their hand out immediately. It's a response we can't control. Our instincts kick in to protect our body.

No...I'm not really off the mark. Never said someone could or would hold onto something that was less than 150F. But I probable should have said the temperature at which a person would receive a severe burn if the object is held onto. Nevertheless those temperatures are not melting any steel and that was the point being made.

"Human skin burns to varying degrees of severity as the applied temperature rises. Humans begin to feel a burning pain when skin temperature rises to 111 degrees Fahrenheit, with first-degree burns developing at 118 F. More severe burns occur at higher temperatures. An applied heat of 131 degrees Fahrenheit causes second-degree burns on exposed skin. Pain receptors overload and become numb at a temperature of 140 F. At 162 F, human tissue is destroyed on contact. The entire range of burn temperatures, from the first appearance of pain to instant destruction, falls well below 212 F, the boiling point of water."