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Thread: .460 S&W case, in a .45 Colt S/A, (Shot Load)

  1. #21
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    GRUMPA's Avatar
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    I can't even begin to tell folks just how many shot loads I've used in my own compensated pistols.

    Never a problem or abnormal debris has ever been a concern, same as using regular loads to be honest.
    Click to see what I'm doing and have available, this takes you to the VS (Vendor Sponsor) section of the site. Currently..25Rem,30Rem, 32Rem, 35Rem, 257Roberts, 358Win, 338Fed, 357 Herrett, 30 Herrett, 401 Winchester, 300Sav, 221 Fireball, 260Rem, 222Rem, 250 Savage, 8mm Mauser (AKA 8x57), 25-20WCF

    Annealing Services

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...php?117-Grumpa






  2. #22
    Boolit Bub MnSpring's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    ... A credible 45 Cal revolver shot shell need not have any perceivable recoil, so the various gas check usage listed seems unnecessary complexities. ... The "dirty bore" trick is quite a good way to mitigate pattern deterioration form the rifling.
    Yes, the recoil, of a .factory 410, in a Governor/Judge, is a WHOLE lot more, than in this crafted .45C/,460 shell.
    (Don't own any of those two, but Have Shot them) If I find one used cheep, may buy one, but then, will Re-Load, to make a Better round.

    The Overshot Wad: A Gas Check. Have tired Many different things. Many. And I suppose it is, because, some of the shells, may be subject to a 10-12-14, or more, recoil cycles, even though the recoil is Far Less, than a factory .410 2-1/2". The frailer of the over shot wad, still happens.

    When I was testing, I Shot, 5 loads at a time. And with various cardboard/pop can alum/etc., and Glue, over shot wads. They Worked. The problem was discovered when, Load 5 in the S/A, Shoot one or two, reload, then next time shoot one, reload, then next time, shoot 2. (Etc. Etc.) I Did not, 'Rotate' the shells, so that the un-shot ones, were shot first the next time. I Found out, the over shot wads, failed, with several recoil cycles. (As light as it was). The Gas Checks, have not failed.

    After testing the load/pattern, found what worked. Loaded 50 rounds. Then they started failing. (Over shot wad getting very loose, and in some cases shot from un-fired rounds dribbling out of bbl.) So, next loaded the, copper, gas check, 150 rounds, it did not fail. Then S&W came out with the .460. Never looked back.

    (Perhaps, it was because of most of the time, sitting on a ZTR lawn mower, the constant, 'little' vibration, had something to do with it)

    Have shot pigeons, from inside a barn, with NO holes in the roof, with #12. Have numerous, rabbits and red squirrels, (in season of course), and Wood Chucks, with #5-6's. Have #9's loaded, ready for snakes, (But Never shot one, except on paper pattern laying on the ground, or in the snow)

    And Yes, their is the occasional, "Hole in the pattern", from the solid GC, But I think the probability, is kinna like, 'getting hit twice from lightening', as to not dispatching the prey.

    If you have a 'Over Shot' wad. That, works as well as a GC, that you have used, for withstanding several recoil cycles. Would be VERY interested in trying that !

    As to the, over powder wad. Did not seem to matter, as long as the powder, and shot, were, 'sealed', and the whole case inside was, 'solid'. I just used the 44 GC's, because, I had them, and essentially they cost me nothing.

    Dirty Bore: In This Case. It works Well !
    Ben Franklin once said:
    "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".

    Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master jmsj's Avatar
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    I had planned to work on this project a long time ago but had forgot about it. This thread reminded me about giving giving it a try.
    I started playing around with using a .44 sizing die to neck down the .460 brass and crumpled the first one. On the second, I used the .44 seating die as a first step and then the sizing die as a finishing step. I kept sizing until the brass seated all the way into my Ruger Vaquero cylinder.
    My plan is to use .410 wads to carry the shot. I put a .410 wad all the way in the reformed case and it is just about the same length as the case with no powder in it. I'll have to figure out how much to cut down the wad once I figure how much space is needed for the powder.
    Has anyone else used a .410 wad in this case? Any advice would be appreciated.
    jmsj.

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub MnSpring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRUMPA View Post
    I can't even begin to tell folks just how many shot loads I've used in my own compensated pistols.
    Never a problem or abnormal debris has ever been a concern, same as using regular loads to be honest.
    That is very encouraging. As soon as I get the 'New to me, but Used' (V .460) back, from my, 'Holster maker', (For the one strap, over the neck, for a Lawn Mower). Will give a, 'FULL', .460 case a try.

    Thanks for the, 'Use' report.
    Ben Franklin once said:
    "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".

    Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.

  5. #25
    Boolit Bub MnSpring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmsj View Post
    ... I started playing around with using a .44 sizing die to neck down the .460 brass and crumpled the first one. On the second, I used the .44 seating die as a first step and then the sizing die as a finishing step. I kept sizing until the brass seated all the way into my Ruger Vaquero cylinder.
    My plan is to use .410 wads to carry the shot. I put a .410 wad all the way in the reformed case and it is just about the same length as the case with no powder in it. ... Has anyone else used a .410 wad in this case? Any advice would be appreciated.
    jmsj.
    From experience. The 're-forming', of the .460 brass. (for a 'neck'), Is what works for you. Looks like you have a method. Suggestions, (Lub, and annealed cases)

    As to using a .410 wad. It will work, but significantly less shot.
    Try, 'Any', wad, between, power and shot. (As long as it seals the load)
    And a Over Shot wad, of a 44 gas check, or try various, cardboard, etc, wads, with a glue.
    Ben Franklin once said:
    "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".

    Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmsj View Post
    I had planned to work on this project a long time ago but had forgot about it. This thread reminded me about giving giving it a try.
    I started playing around with using a .44 sizing die to neck down the .460 brass and crumpled the first one. On the second, I used the .44 seating die as a first step and then the sizing die as a finishing step. I kept sizing until the brass seated all the way into my Ruger Vaquero cylinder.
    My plan is to use .410 wads to carry the shot. I put a .410 wad all the way in the reformed case and it is just about the same length as the case with no powder in it. I'll have to figure out how much to cut down the wad once I figure how much space is needed for the powder.
    Has anyone else used a .410 wad in this case? Any advice would be appreciated.
    jmsj.
    Yes, as posted above, that's what I'm using, and getting much better patterns than just loose shot in the case. Cut the wad back ~1/8"-1/4", depending on your powder charge.

    The shot pattern is much more important than the amount of shot; it's well worth sacrificing some for better patterns that a .410 wad gives. No leading in the barrel that way either. But, if you use a copper gas check in the case mouth, it'll blow out the shot pattern anyway, so maybe it's not worth using a wad in that case.

  7. #27
    Boolit Bub MnSpring's Avatar
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    Update report. My truck 'automatically' kills, when I drive by a gun shop. (Just like MANY other people I know) ! Because I know this, I Quickly pull into their parking lot.
    Anyway, at shop in the TC/s area. Looked, and Low and behold, their was a used Ruger, .45C, (old mod) Vaquero, SB, 3-1/2". Looked again, and someone had put a Bisley hammer on it. Asked to see it, (expected to see, a hack job) BUT, The screws were NOT buggered, the pins were Not 'hammered', The Cyl looked like it was reamed, and so did the forcing cone, (They were). And there was the original hammer in the box. And, it was the 'right' price.

    SO, Excellent piece to try more, of the, .460, (Bottle neck) cases. Found 12 straight wall ones, and loaded them up. Just used a fiber wad, (.070 Nitro) over the powder, And, (because I did not want excessive leading in this one), A, 'wad', of just double wrap, brown paper. It held, 235 g of 7.5's. Necked down, so it would fit in the, NOT, altered cyl. then a 44 gas check for over shot wad.
    (Because the cyl is longer, cutting new cases, and using GC's on both ends, with one wrap, of coffee filter paper, just guessing, could be, 260-270 g of 7.5's).
    NO, Extractions Problems at all, None.
    (5 grains of a popular fast burning powder, which has been around for a LONG time)
    Did try two more, that were a wee bit longer, which I had already necked down. So used the 44 gas check, over the powder, no wad, and gas check over the shot. 290g 7.5's.

    Have not tried this gun with single projectiles yet. Will find something that works. But now I know the, Bottle Neck, .460 cases work Well, in this firearm. Have no desire to ream out this Cyl

    Top photo, top case, is a un fired case, necked too deep, bottom case, is after firing. The top part of that case is formed, to the cyl. Can't see it in the photo, but the next part, is just slightly, larger. (Between the top and and the bottom of the case).

    Try, some .460 brass, cut off to length of cyl, for a full brass, 'shot charge'.
    Neck it down so it will fit. (.45 C)
    And if your shooting style, works with, a Cardboard or other disagrating, over shot wad. Great.
    (As, 'Mikey' always said, "Try it, you'll Like it"). LOL

    Just may, keep this one, use both types of ammo. (Cut down, 'Bottle neck', .460 cases) and Reg cases with single projectile. One gun then, double duty.

    Don't want to do these in a Colt's, or NIB, Ruger, (old) Birdshead, Vaquero.

    But this one, is better than the reamed out cyl, purBurity, and, won't 'destroy' it.
    And not so expensive, as a Colt. And, I can carry 6, not 5.

    And if it shoots, 'boolets' well.
    Well then, One uberty, up for sale, (with the reamed out cyl)


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    Ben Franklin once said:
    "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".

    Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    What are you using to crimp those cases? The top one looks similar to what I get with the RCBS 45 ACP shotshell seat/crimp die.

    Got any pics of the patterns you get with that setup? I'll try to post some as well.

  9. #29
    Boolit Bub MnSpring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yondering View Post
    What are you using to crimp those cases? The top one looks similar to what I get with the RCBS 45 ACP shotshell seat/crimp die. Got any pics of the patterns you get with that setup? I'll try to post some as well.
    The crimp, is just a old die, don’t even know what it is or what it was for.

    I clamped it in a vice, put a tapered stone in the chuck,
    and just made a ‘funnel’. When I had the shape
    Then wrapped a cloth, in polishing grip, (Clover 240)
    And used it, between the die and taper grinding wheel, (Dremmel type)
    Until it was smooth.
    (Changing the patch and adding compound, several times)
    So It just, ’tapers’ the outside if the case, in.
    The deeper the top, (GC) is, the ‘rounder', the crimp.
    Have used it for 357/44/45C

    (A 444 or 44 crimp die will work also)

    As you can see, in the shot one, their is a bit of crimp, than didn’t totally un-fold.
    Guessing it is the low pressure, (about 700fps)
    That is what I usually strive for, in a loaded case.

    No patterns of the, bottle neck, .460 case. Just want to see how they fired.

    Did Lots of patterns, when started, with the .444 cases,
    The 357 cases, were really anemic, 44's were just a bit better, 45C cases a little better yet, but the full length .460's I like. (as to pattern) In the reamed out 45C cylinder.
    however never took photos.

    When get a, rountuit, I’ll post some photos of the ‘bottle’ neck .460 cases.
    Ben Franklin once said:
    "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".

    Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Here are a couple pictures of my shotshells; these are for the 460 S&W, using shortened 444 Marlin brass (no modifications to the case head needed). The short necked down portion is caused by the RCBS shotshell die, which also forms the crimp and seats the card wad over the shot column.

    The second pic shows the pattern at 5 yards. For lack of some common size reference, I traced my hand. Aim point was at the X in the center of the palm. This is ~210 grains of #7-1/2 shot fired at 1,000 fps.




  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy




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    I have been wanting to do this exact project for a while and I'm very glad to have the data you guys posted here, really gets me motivated to start doing it. I bought some 444 brass a couple years ago for this and got the 410 wads last year, so maybe this is the year I actually get around to it.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master dougader's Avatar
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    I've been doing this with old FA 454 brass since about Apr/May of last year. I thought of 460 S&W brass, too, but have never followed up. Another guy used the 45 Colt blank brass from Starline for his.

    The Speer plastic shot capsules are too expensive, too fragile and aren't any good past about 8-9 feet. And the shot payload is significantly less.

    Very cool, fellas! I love your work!

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy
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    Concerning the use of .460 S&W brass for shot loads in the 45 LC. To fit in my 10 inch Thompson Contender 45 Colt barrel (which has a recess cut for the rim) they will not fit as is and therefore the rim has to be reduced in size.

    The rim thickness and diameter of 460 S&W brass is slightly different from 45 Colt. Thickness is .060 vs .059 and diameter of .520 vs .512 (in inches.)

  14. #34
    Boolit Mold
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    To the OP with the reamed cylinder.

    A shorter length of rifling spins the shot less.

    So......make a paradox barrel. Team out the barrel and leave an inch of rifling at the end....
    Or just lap out most of the rifling with lapping compound
    Last edited by 257X50; 11-22-2020 at 05:30 AM.

  15. #35
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    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  16. #36
    Boolit Mold
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    Thank you Ol Buddy

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check