Is this called swaging ?

[DoctorBill]

Whenever I try to find some information about swaging, I come across
stuff about Copper Jacketing.

I want to take some Cast Paper Patch Bullets that I made and make a
Die and Punch to reform them under intense pressure - "Finish" them..

The Cast Bullets (Wheel Weight Metal) are not all that good. lol
The tips and ends are not perfect (home made Die) and I figure that were
I to squeeze them in a Die of the same shape, they would reform to a better shape.







Is what I want to do called "Swaging" ? No Copper Jacket.

I know they make plain old 22 caliber bullets by Pressure (Stamping)
very quickly. It is done, but I don't know the Jargon.

I have some ideas on how to make a die and a ram for each end, but I
am not sure a one ton Arbor Press or an RCBS Press would produce
sufficient pressure to squish the bullets into shape.

DoctorBill

[RPRNY]

Yes, that would be swaging - the forming of bullets under pressure. As to the rest...

[DoctorBill]

What kind of pressure is required ?

I have a 12 ton Harbor Freight Shop Press (Hydraulic), a one ton Arbor Press
(lever and gear) and a regular RCBS Press.

Can one hammer the ram with a small sledge ?

I figure that I can make a cylindrical die with a bottom ram and top ram with
the appropriate shapes and squeeze the Cast Bullets between the Rams.

Getting the Bullet out of the Die is what I believe I would have trouble with.

Are they hard to remove from the Die ?

I have pure lead, so I could make these Cast Bullets with soft lead.

I normally Paper Patch these things and they shoot fine (Target 100 yds).

I have a 9 inch Chinese Lathe and a Harbor Freight Mini-Milling Machine.
Using both, I have made several Aluminum Molds and several hard steel
dies for taper crimping paper patched 45-70's and Martini-Henry .577-450's.

I bought a couple boxes of Buffalo Arms Paper Patching bullets and
they were pressure formed (Swaged) - not cast - they were perfect !
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Paper_Pat....aspx?CAT=4528

If they can make them, then by God, I can make them !
I just need some educating.....

DoctorBill

[varmint243]

The swage dies I have are ground to size, not cut to size.
They are rather precise.
Not easy DIY stuff, unless you have some serious skills.
As far as the press, I use a 1 ton HF arbor press with a handle twice as long as the original for some operations.
I use a RCII for the final operation and I can tell I could break it if I was careless.
My friend has a proper swaging press and there is no comparison.
I am also inclined to believe you should be able to cast well enough to not need to swage afterwards.

What kind of pressure is required ?

I have a 12 ton Harbor Freight Shop Press (Hydraulic), a one ton Arbor Press
(lever and gear) and a regular RCBS Press.

Can one hammer the ram with a small sledge ?

I figure that I can make a cylindrical die with a bottom ram and top ram with
the appropriate shapes and squeeze the Cast Bullets between the Rams.

Getting the Bullet out of the Die is what I believe I would have trouble with.

Are they hard to remove from the Die ?

I have pure lead, so I could make these Cast Bullets with soft lead.

I normally Paper Patch these things and they shoot fine (Target 100 yds).

I have a 9 inch Chinese Lathe and a Harbor Freight Mini-Milling Machine.
Using both, I have made several Aluminum Molds and several hard steel
dies for taper crimping paper patched 45-70's and Martini-Henry .577-450's.

I bought a couple boxes of Buffalo Arms Paper Patching bullets and
they were pressure formed (Swaged) - not cast - they were perfect !
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Paper_Pat....aspx?CAT=4528

If they can make them, then by God, I can make them !
I just need some educating.....

DoctorBill

[kc3ak]

The dies you get from the Corbin brothers are drilled, reamed, hardened then diamond lapped. Easy enough to do after you have 10 or 15 years experience, I would guess. Just kidding a bit there, but I do believe it is a lot more difficult to do that just straight machine work. I have made operational steam engines, but would not even try to make a swaging die.

[runfiverun]

the point form die is the hardest one to make of them all and that's what you need here.
if you just got rid of that ridge on the base and run your mold hotter you'd have some much better boolits.

okay that's out of the way.
when you point form a chunk of lead you push it into a die and then use a rod to punch the piece back out again.
I have done it with a mallet and with my palm.
your gonna want to make a D--cutter to ream the die first then polish it out to round and the proper diameter.
you'll need a base punch that closely fits the die to avoid lead pressing around the side of it.
you also swage up in diameter, only .001 is enough but you want the core to slip in the die then bump up and fill out the inside of the die under pressure.
you don't have to apply tons of pressure just a firm even squeeze and hesitate [maintaining pressure] to allow everything to move.
a consistent core weight will produce better more consistent results.

[Huvius]

Swaging is what you are thinking of but one issue you may run into is that you want to swage a boolit to the same diameter as the beginning cast core - your current boolit.
It may not feed into the die well without stripping lead from the sides. I have done this myself and now know that it is better to start with an undersized core or cylinder of lead as you end up with little rings of extruded lead collecting around the base pin and what you are doing is cookie cutting the lead into the die which just cannot be good for the longevity of the die.
A hammer die is a very reasonable alternative if you don't happen to have a stout press. Really, a cylinder with the required sized hole in it, a base pin with either a flat end or raised end for cupped bases and a top pin with your desired ogive shape for the nose is all that is needed - oh, and a 5lb or heavier sledge hammer. Lube it up a little and give 'er a whack! I know a few folks bumping up boolits this way.
If your base on your cast boolits is bothering you, it can easily be trimmed off with a razor knife (box cutter) leaving a nice flat base which is OK. You don't need a cupped base to make a good shooting boolit.

I fully understand your desire to move to swaging over casting.
I have had trouble in the past with getting really good results casting and now have a swaging set up for my .458" patched boolits (actually .459" patched) which I can use in five or six of my rifles (using smokeless). On cannot argue with the quality results obtained with swaging.
I have posted this picture before, but it is just so satisfying!

[Traffer]

You may not know the jargon but you obviously know what you are doing. Is that picture of .458 bullets for paper patching? Do I understand you correctly that you are swaging these bullets from unmelted wheel weights? I have been doing something similar with 22lr bullets. Just started this stuff less than a year ago.22lr are pretty easy to swage. But because both ends have smaller diameters (because of the hollow base with a rebate because the bullet diameter is the same diameter as the case) So I have to use two dies with punch holes in both dies.
---
(I just re read your post and see that you are casting bullets and swaging them to a finish. I do much the same with the little 22lr. Others use a similar method to impart hollow bases into their bullets with the appropriately shaped punches.)

Whenever I try to find some information about swaging, I come across
stuff about Copper Jacketing.

I want to take some Cast Paper Patch Bullets that I made and make a
Die and Punch to reform them under intense pressure - "Finish" them..

The Cast Bullets (Wheel Weight Metal) are not all that good. lol
The tips and ends are not perfect (home made Die) and I figure that were
I to squeeze them in a Die of the same shape, they would reform to a better shape.







Is what I want to do called "Swaging" ? No Copper Jacket.

I know they make plain old 22 caliber bullets by Pressure (Stamping)
very quickly. It is done, but I don't know the Jargon.

I have some ideas on how to make a die and a ram for each end, but I
am not sure a one ton Arbor Press or an RCBS Press would produce
sufficient pressure to squish the bullets into shape.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Traffer - no, the bullets in the photos are wheel weight Cast Bullets from an Aluminum Mold that I made. They are .429 cal and paper patched to .457 cal.
Three rolls of Newsprint put on wet. Patched to just under the groove diameter for my 45-70's - Black Powder.

I used a "D-Bit" I had made to shape the Aluminum Mold.

The Bullet falls out of the Solid mold w/o being pushed out because it has a
slight taper - smaller diameter at the top than the bottom. I polished the taper into
the mold with Flitz Polish and the bullet on a stick.
Pictures at end of post

To be honest, I do not know how to make the traditional split mold like one buys
from LEE or RCBS !

I am thinking of trying to make a Swaging Die to swage (compress) those bullets into the perfect shape I did not obtain from the molding process.

Yes - I do use a knife to trim the base. If fact, I am considering making a rotary blade with a convex shape of the bullet base that would trim the base to a perfect shape - mount it in my Lathe Chuck and hand press the bullet's base into the cutter (slowly and carefully!).

I could make a concave cutter to trim the bullet's head to a nice round shape - like a pencil sharpener.

But - I would like to try a swaging die.

I have made punches on my Lathe to cut card disks with Threaded Rod and Drill Rod Steel for loading my 45-70's and Martini-Henri .577-450 BP Cartridges, so I can make the hollow die and the hardened steel punches. Not all that difficult.
You have to polish the punches in the die until they fit perfectly - time consuming.

I posted how I did that on this forum some time ago.

If I made a steel die and the two end punches, I could use my one ton Arbor Press to "finish off" those cast bullets. Use the Cast Bullets as starting material for the swaging die.

Getting the swaged bullet out of the press is what has me stymied. That involves some
clever use of springs and such. I don't need an elaborate press as I have much time on my hands - I am retired (73 years old).

I need something to do....

DoctorBill

PS - Traffer ! I do not know what I am doing - maybe 20%, if that !

This is a Double sided mold - makes two different shaped bullets.
Screw in threaded handle. Sprue Cutter can be used on either side.
Aluminum Block - bullets fall out when sprue is cut off.






I polish the bullet cavity with a Bullet from the mold cast with an
Aluminum Wire stuck in the end of that bullet. Bullet shown is
one from the OTHER SIDE of this mold.
Flitz Metal Polish. Spinning (makes it symmetrical) and in and out
(makes it tapered) - wash - repeat.

[Huvius]

So they ARE undersized already.
Yes, they will work great as cores for swaging just make sure they are as uniform as you can get them unless you want to incorporate a bleed hole in the die which can be done too so they all end up exactly the same weight.

[clodhopper]

DoctorBill,
The die you propose could have the base punch threaded, with a sleeve that goes the length from the die to a nut threaded on your base punch. Tightening the nut will pull the base punch out.
The nose punch then can be pushed through the die, pushing the bullet out, on the arbor press.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You will find a great deal of useful formation on the Corbin website, even if you plan on making your own dies:

http://www.swage.com/

The first point is that good swage dies do depend on extreme smoothness, produced by lapping. I would probably do it in the milling machine or lathe, without moving the block at all after drilling the cavity. Flitz polish is good within its limits, but a lapidary shop can provide you with a succession of grades of silicon carbide or aluminium oxide powder.

It is a pretty good rule that in making things with holes in them, you should make first the inside and then the outside around it. In this case the edge of your bullet mould would look more regular if you skimmed a little off the top. I also don't see the point of the slight lip around the base, which is extremely likely to be nicked or irregularly cast, and produce asymmetric gas leak at the muzzle. With a patched bullet you don't need it, and with unpatched it ought to be deeper and thicker. I'd be inclined to use sprue plates at top and bottom (with no sprue at the bottom of course), and perhaps join them with a metal rod to move together.

[Traffer]

As far as the mold, as you are making them with a home made "d" reamer, I think you are half way there already. I haven't done this yet, It's one of my future projects. I will also post some pics of the swaging dies that I have made for the 22lr and discuss the MANY obstacles that I encountered and am still encountering.
Here is a link to the "D" reamer mold process:
https://youtu.be/m1YPTarNliw
And welcome to CastBoolits!

[Traffer]

Here is a pic of one of my swaged (and knurled) 22lr bullets. It has a deeply punched hollow base that you cannot see. I took the pic because it was my first batch of powder coated and I over-baked the damn things so the powder coat now scratches off. But you can see what a person can accomplish in making dies with just a dremel and drills for machine tools.Attachment 173807

[Bent Ramrod]

What kind of pressure is required ?

I have a 12 ton Harbor Freight Shop Press (Hydraulic), a one ton Arbor Press
(lever and gear) and a regular RCBS Press.

Can one hammer the ram with a small sledge ?

I figure that I can make a cylindrical die with a bottom ram and top ram with
the appropriate shapes and squeeze the Cast Bullets between the Rams.

Getting the Bullet out of the Die is what I believe I would have trouble with.

Are they hard to remove from the Die ?

I have pure lead, so I could make these Cast Bullets with soft lead.

I normally Paper Patch these things and they shoot fine (Target 100 yds).

I have a 9 inch Chinese Lathe and a Harbor Freight Mini-Milling Machine.
Using both, I have made several Aluminum Molds and several hard steel
dies for taper crimping paper patched 45-70's and Martini-Henry .577-450's.

I bought a couple boxes of Buffalo Arms Paper Patching bullets and
they were pressure formed (Swaged) - not cast - they were perfect !
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Paper_Pat....aspx?CAT=4528

If they can make them, then by God, I can make them !
I just need some educating.....

DoctorBill

You can use an arbor press (people at least reportedly use arbor presses for this) or hammer the ram with a small sledge. Here is the kind of die used with the latter method.

Attachment 173828 Attachment 173829 Attachment 173830

The main body of the die is a reamed and polished half-inch hole in a metal cylinder; the bottom is the point former and the ram forms the hollow base. Judicious banging on the latter with a brass hammer should swage the lead core or lead casting to the interior shape of the swage. Note the T handle which is probably necessary for extracting the ram and the knurling for twisting the other two pieces apart. There is a gouge in the sidewall of this specimen; probably somebody used a piece of rebar or something to try to get a bullet out. You would need some kind of precision fit punch a little longer than the die, and a hole in a piece of wood to catch the bullet as it is gently tapped out. Some light lubrication would probably be necessary.

Dr. Mann reported that he used an arbor press to swage bullets, but my experience with a rather large one outside our machine shop, which had a ratchet mechanism in the pinion drive and a big rack for the plunger (plus a long cheater bar on the lever) indicated to me that it would likely require my full weight on the lever, and maybe more, to make any lead flow. Some sort of compound linkage, like on an RCBS press, would multiply the operator's force much better.

If you are a really top drawer diemaker, you can make the point forming portion integral with the die body and only have the base forming ram as the loose part. Ned Roberts said that was the kind of die you typically got with your muzzle loading slug gun in the old days. He also noted that sometimes, getting the bullet out of the die was a major operation, which called for a fair amount of beating on the outside and profane oaths.

[DoctorBill]

Oh - YES !

I am VERY good at profane oaths ! I majored in Profane Oaths in the College of life....

Reading about olde time swaging dies with only one ram and relying on the bullet
falling out sounds like my cup of tea !

I was wondering about making one like that and putting a hardened wood screw
on the end of the bottom ram. It should swage the screw into the bullet and allow
the swaged bullet to be "pulled" out and then unscrewed from the ram.... ? ? ?

Do the Profane Oaths really work !? I know some real duzzi's ! Like "Hillary !"

DoctorBill

PS - I also am wondering if one could use compressed air to expel the bullet
after the ram is eased back ? Just don't get your face in the way....

Really way out idea - Can one make a bullet that whistles loudly in flight ?

[DoctorBill]

I do believe that I will endeavor to make the following Die:



and I will use this Steel Rod I found in a Metal Recycling Yard.



Ought to be a fun project ! It will keep me out of trouble.....

DoctorBill

PS - any comments on using an Air Compressor to eject the bullet ?

[DoctorBill]

Made the Die. Reamed out the shape with my "D-Bit" - BUT....

Have no 7/16th Drill Rod around ! Thought I had some !
Must have used it all up a couple of years ago.
Lost track of everything when my wife got Cancer....she is OK now.
Chemo is amazing ! Hideous, but they have made such progress !
You poison the Cancer and just barely not poison the body.

So - ordered two 3 ft lengths from ENCO. Be here Monday.

Obvious that the swaged bullet won't 'fall out' ! Want to try compressed air
to somehow force it out after swaging it...

Pictures coming....a work in progress.

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

Have you decided how you are going to trim the bases? I am doing the 22lr in a similar way except for it having an opening at each end with a punch at each end. Some of the bases have to be trimmed. Been also trying to figure an accurate and fast way to trim them.

[DoctorBill]

Here is where I am - currently Aug 13, 2016 - waiting for 7/16 Drill Rod to arrive (UPS).
I had unknowingly run out of that Drill Rod - Good for .45 cal PP Bullet Mold making.

Top and Bottom Halves - Still Polishing the cavity with "FLITZ METAL POLISH".


I am thinking of trying Compressed Air ejection of the swaged Bullet...(?)


Here is what it would look like in operation. I inserted the D-Bit just to
indicate how the Ram would look inserted in the top...


Where everything goes


Once the Drill Rod arrives by UPS on Monday (8-15-2016), I will shape the
end of the rod and cut it off at the appropriate length to make the "RAM".

I know the swaged bullet will not easily come out (lol), so I want to drill
as small a hole as I can into the cavity (bottom), Drill & Tap a hole to hold
an air port (like on an innertube) to eject the bullet (into a Cotton Lined Box)
with my Air Compressor.

The whole thing is a bit too long for my Arbor Press - I may trim the top
to shorten it. I have a 12 Ton Hydraulic Shop Press, but that may be OVERKILL !

Traffer - the RAM should make the bullet base be the shape I want (I hope!).

This may all go south and be a big pile of Hillary - stay tuned....

DoctorBill