Paper cap and ball cartridges

[DrDucati]

I would think it would be less likely to wick yes. I soak a sheet of felt in a pan of melted lube, let it drip dry, and then punch the wads out of the sheet.

[rodwha]

I'm sure you mean "lube getting into the powder". I've been all around this issue for a while. It's not complicated. The lube can be placed in direct contact with the powder IF it has no oils in it that will soak into the powder over time or when the weather gets warm, though you'd want to avoid leaving your cartridges in a car in a hot parking lot in the sun, for sure. Gateofeo #1 lube (look it up) works pretty well, as does the old standby, SPG. If you want more insurance, then yes; use a card wad between the powder and the lube. BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) shooters have been doing this for years and years in their metal cartridges.

A Big Lube style bullet will work too, but either way you look at it, the right amount of lube is going to take up a certain amount of space in the limited capacity chamber of a revolver. A bullet with a giant lube groove will help keep lube away from the powder, but it will be substantially longer than a more standard bullet of the same weight. Longer bullets generally require a faster rifling twist than shorter bullets. Using a longer bullet also means you do NOT have the option of loading without lube to increas your powder capacity for hunting. In hunting, where you may only fire one or two shots for blood, you don't need lube. The lube is only for keeping the gun running by keeping the powder fouling soft so it gets blown out with each subsequent shot. If you're only firing a frew shots, you can forgo the lube and use more powder in its place, UNLESS you have a long, big lube bullet, in which case the space is used up already.

The bottom line is that you can use all the lube you need by placing it between the powder and the bullet, so long as you use the correct lube. If you use a lube that's too soft, or has oil in it, it can wick its way through the paper to the powder over time, even if you have a big lube groove full of it and no lube is placed on the powder.

Use the right lube, use enough of it to prevent all fouling build-up (meaning your hundredth shot leaves the barrel looking exactly as it did after the first shot) and use whatever bullet shoots best in your gun.

With all the talk about this or that lube in the percussion revolver discussions, and whose personal recipe is the "best", the BPCR and Coyboy competition shooters have been quietly using SPG lube very successfully all along. Best we take some heed to that. GF1 lube has been working well for me, in hundreds and hundreds of paper cartridges, either placed directly on the powder or between cards, though I'm still not done with a long-term test to determine how much, if any, velocity reduction might result from leaving cartridges assembled with the GF1 in contact with the powder through two hot summers. If you're going to shoot them up within a few weeks or months, and you're not leaving them out in the hot sun on a hot day, you'll not have any cause for concern using GF1 or SPG in direct contact.

Also; lube in a bullet groove is not going to mix with the powder fouling as well as lube between the bullet and the powder. If 99.9% of it gets blown out the muzzle, then it's not doing its job.

Remember; we don't care a whit about actual "lubrication of the bullet" here. We don't need any of that at all in a black powder revolver, so even using the word "lube" can be a bit misleading if you don't understand the objective here. The only reason we need it at all is to keep the fouling in the barrel, and that which gets into the cylinder arbor, nice and gooey-soft so there's no buildup to degrade the performance of the barrel or tie up the action. That means we can keep shooting all day and not have to fuss around with swabing or removal of the cylinder for cleaning until we got home in the evening.

Oh! Another thing about using a card. Standard cards for 44/45 are .450" or, most likely, larger. That means a standard sized card will create an impedimant to inserting the cartridge into a chamber, being that practically all repro 44 percussion revolvers have chamber diameters of .450" and less. Some are as small as .447". I've used .452" - .454" cards in paper cartridges, but they're more difficult to load. Lately I've been using a punch for making cards for the 43 Spanish cartridge (available at Buffalo Arms in Idaho). Given that the paper case is tapered, and given that the card is below the lube pill, which is in turn below the bullet, the 43 Spanish-sized cards fit the paper case pretty well. You can tweak your rolling mandrel to ensure that your smaller card fits snug in the case with your desired amount of powder (I use 30 grains in most 44 carts).

So the GF1 lube doesn't taint the powder over time?

[Michael J. Spangler]

I've read the GF1 lube does well with pork lard. I'm guessing the cleaned deodorized lard for baking would work pretty well for this application? Might be easier to obtain. Although with the large Portuguese influence around here I might be able to get the mutton tallow locally.


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[Omnivore]

So the GF1 lube doesn't taint the powder over time?

Not that I've noticed, but as I said; I've yet to chronograph identical loads that are fresh, and two years old. I have 100 cartridges with GF1 directly on the powder, and they're two years old. I need to make up a few fresh and take them straight out and clock them, comparing them to the old ones.

Only then will I have empirical data.

I've since taken to placing a thin card between powder and lube, just in case.

If the chrono tests come up in the same range, then I'll gladly forego the cards in favor of simplicity.

By that answer you may conclude that I believe it likely that GF1, at least in hot weather (I've stored the old carts in a south-facing upstairs room, often exceeding 100 degrees F, for two summers) could degrade the powder at least a little.

[rodwha]

I punched out some thin cereal box cardboard for such. Haven't used any though.

But then I only put lube in the lube groove and just don't shoot RBs anymore. But I do get lube all over it really. I've been wanting to try pan lubing though but figured it would certainly have more lube all over it.

[alexzxz]

Quick post for someone thinking of starting paper cartridges. I've been using a dowel until today when I saw the sharpie on my desk. Comparing it to a round ball on my desk, seemed about the same. Wrapped a quick cartridge around it. The ball was a little tight. Put a piece of electrical tape where the ball should be for my 20 grain load. Cartridge forms perfectly and fit snug in the 1858 cylinder. I would use scotch tape instead to easier adjust the thickness, since electrical tape is thicker than most.

So you don't need to shape a dowel to get started. Grab that sharpie off your desk and you're ready to go.

It's very relaxing and easy to make cartridges while watching TV. As I shoot JSG which is low on fouling, I just roll, glue, fill with a Lee powder measure, throw a ball in and twist shut. I do make lube wads but only use them every few shots, so the majority are simple paper, powder and ball catridges. Keep it simple.

[Dbtk44]

Quick post for someone thinking of starting paper cartridges. I've been using a dowel until today when I saw the sharpie on my desk. Comparing it to a round ball on my desk, seemed about the same. Wrapped a quick cartridge around it. The ball was a little tight. Put a piece of electrical tape where the ball should be for my 20 grain load. Cartridge forms perfectly and fit snug in the 1858 cylinder. I would use scotch tape instead to easier adjust the thickness, since electrical tape is thicker than most.

So you don't need to shape a dowel to get started. Grab that sharpie off your desk and you're ready to go.

It's very relaxing and easy to make cartridges while watching TV. As I shoot JSG which is low on fouling, I just roll, glue, fill with a Lee powder measure, throw a ball in and twist shut. I do make lube wads but only use them every few shots, so the majority are simple paper, powder and ball catridges. Keep it simple.

Hat's off to you Sir...Excellent idea! I'm going to give this a try, as the dowel I was using seems to have sprouted legs and walked off. Sharpies, I got!

[alexzxz]

Just to be clear this is a medium tip normal sharpie I found at the office, there may be sizes like fine or large that won't fit.

EDIT: Well I may be wrong there. The tape covered up "Fine" so I guess it's fine tip.
Also the tolerances on these may not all be the same. A red tip I had was slightly too large, while black and blue seemed to work.

Depending on your tolerances you might not even need tape.

[derek45]

I made some paper cartridges for my pietta 1860 a few years ago

i used TOP brand rolling papers, what the gas station had

they didn’t burn well, left lots of smoldering paper in the chambers

i recently tried the method in ERAS GONE BULLET MOLDS video, coffee filters soaked in stump remover

this worked much better, i shot 30 rounds and they all burned up completely


.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have made mine based on Capandball's video how to make paper cartridges, and yes I roll the paper on the dowel after using a square paper for the bottom...pour charge, drop ball on top. I did not change the ball in any way.

Here are pics: 1) the cartridge as dropped into the cylinder, 2) the ball, as rammed into the cylinder, and 3) thin ring of lead with some glue attached. It looks like the cigarette rolling paper (large Zig-Zag cut to shape) tears and comes up around the ball as it enters the throat. I will put some sort of grease over the cylinder and see how these shoot. One videographer stated that cigarette paper does not burn completely, and if that is the case, I will obtain the hair curler paper mentioned in some vids.

Attachment 173392Attachment 173393Attachment 173394

If you shave off some lead, doesn’t it cut the paper too? Do you pack the cut off paper in on top?

[rancher1913]

doesnt matter if it cuts the paper, its already done its job. the paper just keeps everything together until you need it. the perm paper from hair salons work the best and seem to burn up better.

[Drydock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zx3Ph3xsak

Easy kit that works well.

[TheOutlawKid]

Idid a write up on making paper cartridges on page two of this forum listing.. Check it out if interested. Makes the best fit and performance paper cartridges after experimenting a whole lot with different designs and materials.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph....859019/page-2

[BlackPowderLove]

Excellent! I have been rolling both round ball and Johnston and Dows with paper and love the little cartridges. I have used both nitrated coffee filters and cig papers. Both seem to work well. I also made up some Faux historic packaging which has been fun!

IW

[archeryrob]

Wow, I just found this thread and I watched a youtuber with the hair wraps and copied that. I found it worked great and can't imagine having to go through all the trouble to nitrate papers. They are $3.50 a 1000 at the beauty supply store and I don;t bother with cutting them out and roll around a 2" taper from 11/32 to 1/2". 30 grains work better and a rub of cheap chap stick on the wool wad and stick the ball to it sprue up and drop in with tweezers. Without the chapstick the wad twists and the ball rotates. The guy I copied used sticky wads with veggie wads between the powder and it. My was seems easier. I tried a dab of bacon grease and it works but paper started ripping and figured it could wick to the powder if hot.

The 2" taper worked better with 30 grains as 21 I had to force the wad and ball down hard. A shorter taper would work better for the lighter load.

Excellent! I have been rolling both round ball and Johnston and Dows with paper and love the little cartridges. I have used both nitrated coffee filters and cig papers.

What gun? Are the J&D conicals sliding in without having to modify the loading gate?

[derek45]

what brand of hair curler papers should i get from amazon ???

[ButchC]

Jumping in here, on the first page nitrocellulose based adhesives were mentioned. I'm currently very interested in New Skin first aid adhesive due to the ease of acquisition compared to collodion. I have used some to glue up some RAW rolling papers that I made a few cartridges out of. I'll be testing their "burn rates/completion" today. Eventually, I would like to assess the "enhancement" the nitrocellulose provides if used on a folded base of the cartridge where I have experienced some hang fires with multiple layers of paper.

My initial impressions are that so long as the adhesion of the paper holds up long term, you certainly won't lose anything to a glue stick and the small brush may be significantly easier to manipulate on such a small surface area.

More info soon....

[ButchC]

OK, results are in and they're not awesome.

On an open flat sheet the New Skin is a decent glue and holds cartridge paper just fine, takes a flame as easily as the paper and burns with more vigor, and after drying acts as a waterproofing of sorts.

On the mandrel you need to use so much NS to hold the wrap tension, that it seeps through the paper and begins to bind to the cartridge to the mandrel (mine is 3d printed and seems to transfer color to the paper) and that volume takes an unreasonable time to cure. Now my bottle has been open for years so perhaps lost some volatile solvents and this is contributing to the drying problem, I think they may sell a clove oil free version as well which may help so YMMV.

Going back to a problem I had with hang fire, I then assembled a cartridge as I had been with a glue stick and painted it with the NS. I was hoping for an accelerant effect and still got to hear the cap go off before the shot. The problem remains unsolved with that particular cartridge configuration.

Now as something to add water resistance and maybe durability to the cartridge, I don't think New Skin is going to hurt. Beyond that it's not ideal other than to patch up the hole the loading lever might leave in your palm jamming in a paper wrapped .454.

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[archeryrob]

what brand of hair curler papers should i get from amazon ???

TrueWave end papers, your local beauty shop should have them.

[derek45]

TrueWave end papers, your local beauty shop should have them.

thanks
i’ll see if my wife can get some