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Thread: Paper cap and ball cartridges

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy DrDucati's Avatar
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    Paper cap and ball cartridges

    Was in the hardware store about to buy a couple dowel rods to fashion paper cartridge forming mandrels when the hardware guy showed me the grooved dowel pins, huge price difference:

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    Chucked it into my drill, and with drill held in the vise, applied sandpaper while gauging the pins taper with calipers. Made me some cartridges easy (cartridge box purchased from YouTuber "capandball" :

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    Last edited by DrDucati; 07-31-2016 at 12:52 AM. Reason: spell correction

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


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    Nice Idea!!

  3. #3
    Boolit Bub
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    That's a great idea!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    As of late been drifting into the cap-n-ball thing. Many things to learn and have been absorbing as much as I can find (scored a nice pair of 2nd Gen. 1860's two weeks ago- no boxes). May I ask the Dr. some questions on his experience with this technique. I have seen a YouTube video a fellow who uses large cigarette papers, folds them over wooden dowel and glues to bottom of ball. Charges tube from rear and then folding tail over charge and glue dot on bottom to hold. Questions- With your approach are you changing or reducing ball diameter? Does paper shear when seating if left at cut a ring ball diameter? His were straight cylindrical where your approach has a taper, I like the look and thought of that. What paper are you using? I would guess, roll paper, charge, ball, roll top? Thanks

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    I used to make mine the same way. Nitrated velum for the paper....worked great. Just had to be careful not to damage them before loading.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy DrDucati's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtek View Post
    As of late been drifting into the cap-n-ball thing. Many things to learn and have been absorbing as much as I can find (scored a nice pair of 2nd Gen. 1860's two weeks ago- no boxes). May I ask the Dr. some questions on his experience with this technique. I have seen a YouTube video a fellow who uses large cigarette papers, folds them over wooden dowel and glues to bottom of ball. Charges tube from rear and then folding tail over charge and glue dot on bottom to hold. Questions- With your approach are you changing or reducing ball diameter? Does paper shear when seating if left at cut a ring ball diameter? His were straight cylindrical where your approach has a taper, I like the look and thought of that. What paper are you using? I would guess, roll paper, charge, ball, roll top? Thanks
    I have made mine based on Capandball's video how to make paper cartridges, and yes I roll the paper on the dowel after using a square paper for the bottom...pour charge, drop ball on top. I did not change the ball in any way.

    Here are pics: 1) the cartridge as dropped into the cylinder, 2) the ball, as rammed into the cylinder, and 3) thin ring of lead with some glue attached. It looks like the cigarette rolling paper (large Zig-Zag cut to shape) tears and comes up around the ball as it enters the throat. I will put some sort of grease over the cylinder and see how these shoot. One videographer stated that cigarette paper does not burn completely, and if that is the case, I will obtain the hair curler paper mentioned in some vids.

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  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy DrDucati's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb16 View Post
    I used to make mine the same way. Nitrated velum for the paper....worked great. Just had to be careful not to damage them before loading.
    That's where the cartridge box above would prove very useful

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I think a tapered paper cartridge would be surer or bursting when rammed into the chamber, and a cylindrical one would just concertina. Not that it matters much, as a correctly fitting bullet would surely shear it, and I have ruptured thin copper sheet in a cartridge revolver cylinder gap with a small pistol primer over an inch away, so paper would certainly be no obstacle to a percussion cap.

    I got good results by a very fast dip of each cartridge in cellulose model aircraft dope. You won't find that in every town, now that tissue paper has been replaced so much by plastic film, and model aircraft playstations, and it might have some tendency to degrade the powder. If I was doing it again I would dissolve a lesser quantity of celluloid (table-tennis balls if not findable elsewhere) in cellulose thinners. Collodion was used in the old days, and should be fine if you can find it. It is used for some photographic processes, and theatrical makeup departments apply scars with it.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    You can spend the next six months fooling around with dangerous chemicals and exotic, treated papers, and it will not make the slightest difference.

    Cigarette papers do not completely burn up in the chambers. Hair curling papers, also known as perm papers, do not completely burn up in the chambers either. This is NOT a problem. All you will notice is that during cleaning you'll be pulling a few bits of unburned paper out of the chambers. Just shoot and forget about it, stop obsessing over it, ignore it, and all will be well. No, it doesn't clog the flash hole. No it doesn't interfere with the operation of the gun in any way. Whatever you're going to ask next; no, it doesn't hurt, harm or interfere with that either.

    DO, however use some caution, as in all muzzleloader shooting, in all scenarios, that you avoid reloading immediately, lest some ember be burning still as you force in another charge. I'll blow over the cylinder face as I rotate the cylinder, and then blow down the barrel bore. That adds some humidity, which helps keep the fouling soft, and it also gives some time (a few seconds) for any smoldering to extinguish. I have not ever had, or heard of, a spontaneous ignition in a revolver during loading, but I've seen it happen in long guns.

    I've fired thousands of paper cartridges, using both cigarette paper and perm paper, without treating of the paper, and they work very well without any chemical treatment. For the last few years I've gone to shooting paper cartridges only, made exclusively with perm paper.

    The tapered case does two things;
    It makes the cartridge easier to load into the gun, especially in Colt revolvers where you don't have a straight shot into the chamber. Remington revolvers give you a straight shot into the chamber, and so there's less of a reason to taper the case, but still a tapered case goes in a bit easier. The other thing it does is to make the bullet easier to get into the paper case when assembling the cartridge. This design is closed at the head (the rear, or small end) with one layer of paper as an "end cap". The powder charge is put into the larger end, followed by a card and/or a lube pull and then the bullet.

    Some people glue in the bullets. I don't. I prefer to leave the paper case longer at the large end, so there's enough paper to twist it over the nose of the bullet. Well, just watch and listen-- all the questions being asked above are answered, and more;

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIyc6s8fnQ

    Don't make it more complicated that it needs to be.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Thank You Dr. D for detailed reply and great photos. On the same video of straight wall load he was using the cig paper. In the video a very noticeable confetti air burst, no big deal if they shoot well for me. When you made the statement "cut to shape" I would assume a taper cut? Also on sizing paper, are you single wrap? Appears to be a 58' and that ball is down the hole some, about 20 grains?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Like Omnivore I never noticed any ignition issues with paper shards left in the chambers.

    I did buy stump remover and nitrated some of my cigarette papers but quickly lost interest as it just added more to it and left a crystal mess. I never did try the few I made out.

    I like your powder dropping tool Omnivore! That would be quite handy for loading up a bunch of paper cartridges.

    I didn't care much for the look of the pull tab twisty tail, but seeing your setup it sure would be handy. Do you tear the end off during loading?

    When I was making my cartridges I topped my mandrel with a bullet and used the lube to hold it to the paper and my tail was on the back end which I trimmed.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy DrDucati's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtek View Post
    Thank You Dr. D for detailed reply and great photos. On the same video of straight wall load he was using the cig paper. In the video a very noticeable confetti air burst, no big deal if they shoot well for me. When you made the statement "cut to shape" I would assume a taper cut? Also on sizing paper, are you single wrap? Appears to be a 58' and that ball is down the hole some, about 20 grains?
    It's a Lee .454 ball with 30gr 777. I made a cardboard form which is trapezoidal.

    If there is no advantage to different papers, why use perm paper? Which is cheaper and more abundant, cig paper or perm paper?

    There are two types of Experts on YouTube: I have great respect for those that are gracious and humble toward those to whom they would impart their knowledge: hickok45, capandball, fortunecookie45LC, and blackoracle69 to name a few of my favorites.
    Last edited by DrDucati; 07-31-2016 at 05:56 PM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Perm papers are by far cheaper.

    I've not used them though.

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    Funny coincidence.

    Funny coincidence. I recently got myself a new 1858, so I was looking into making paper cartridges. Found that exact video by capandball and found it the most elegant way to roll a cartridge. Also his accent just fits, idk how.

    This Thursday I went to a Sally's on the way back from work, and got these Jumbo end papers. $2.79 or with tax ~$3 for 1000 papers. Very affordable. Then was out for a few days to meet a friend in MA so put it aside.

    Came back and checked them out. Very thin, yet feels stronger than any paper I've seen for that thickness.
    Here's a piece I cut out compared to a full sized piece. It's holding up a clock.



    Decided to see if I could nitrate them. Soaked them in saturated 100% potassium nitrate I got from bio-tech company a few years back. Also tried some fertilizer grade ammonium nitrate for the heck of it.



    The potassium soaked ones air-dried quickly with a small fan. Ammonium nitrate is too hygroscopic so that needs to be oven-dried. You can see the crystallization from the KNO3 on the sheet. Threw the container in fridge for a bit, and came back with sliver-like crystals in 20 mins. Interesting. Didn't know that was the crystallization pattern.



    Put one of the KN03 sheets in oven with the NH4NO3 sheets for 10-15 mins 275F. Came back with a yellowed KNO3 sheet, and the NH4NO3 sheets stuck on my pan. Way too impure fertilizer grade. Click on the next three for SLOW-MOTION VIDEOS of the yellowed sheet, the air-dried KNO3 sheet, and original end paper burning.



    RESULT:
    If you can't see the videos, the normal end-paper is best. Very little, practically no residue so it'll be negligible in your gun. It may burn slower than nitrated paper but it burns amazingly CLEAN. This may result in longer lasting embers but you shouldn't immediately reload a cap and ball anyway. I really wonder how they make these papers.

    Now I feel like I wasted a lot of time trying to make a good product better.
    Welp, hope that helped.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy DrDucati's Avatar
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    alexzxz, you learned something of value through experience. I would say it was time well spent.

  16. #16
    Boolit Bub
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    Yeah that I did. Don't particularly regret it besides the fact that I should've slept earlier for work today.

    Some more things to consider:

    1. The nitrated papers may be worse because they probably contain excess amounts of potassium nitrate. So the residue may just be bits of leftover burnt nitrate. I soaked these end papers in a saturated solution of 3.5 g to 10 g water. If I used 2g or maybe 1.5g, the results may vastly improve. Some of that residue should also be nitrate salts leftover.
    2. These burn tests are done in open air. The BP should lend some oxygen to the end papers so that should be fine according to most people's experiences.

    Fun experiment, but this does goes against the reasoning behind paper cartridges, that they should be fast and convenient. This was neither so unless I want to build a machine that churns out nitrated papers from 1000 count box (since they can be fan dried) I probably won't do this again.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    The twist tail is torn off as the cartridge is inserted into the chamber, prior to ramming. You get to where it's a single, stuff-and-tear motion.

    The perm papers (A.K.A. and wraps) are not only cheaper, they're big enough you can get two 44 cases per sheet with room to spare. So 3,000 sheets, using one of nine for end caps, gives you around 5,300 cases, for three or four dollars. You'd have to compare to the jumbo cigarette papers too. Normal size cig papers aren't big enough to roll them they way I roll them, and that still leaves the issue of there being only one gummed edge whereas the end cap style case needs two glued edges. For some other case designs, cig papers work fine, but they're still more expensive.

    I went through several iterations of cig paper cartridges before settling (for now) on the perm paper, end cap style case. They're easier and faster to make, and if I go by the number of perm papers I've been through, I've made over five thousand of this design - many times more than the total number of cig paper cartridges I ever made.

    Nitrating is interesting, but do it to five thousand cases and then get back to me on how much fun that is. Let's think of ways to make it simpler, easier and faster.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    "Nitrating is interesting, but do it to five thousand cases and then get back to me on how much fun that is. Let's think of ways to make it simpler, easier and faster."

    Precisely why I quit.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy DrDucati's Avatar
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    True though there are a lot of tedious things I've done for the fun of experimentation. Won't necessarily continue to do them.

    I shoot a box of these and they shoot great.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Cigarette papers work fine. If they are "too expensive", so is shooting. Complete combustion of the paper is not necessary nor does it have any impact on performance.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check