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Thread: .30 Bore BP Cartridge

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    .30 Bore BP Cartridge

    Yeah-h-h, but how do you have enough neck for a lube cookie right?
    Well, I've been pouring over the books trying to come up with a cartridge to put in an old 1800's bolt action. And while I was at it the brain spun off into wildcat wonderland and the 7.62x39 dimensions distracted me for a while.
    So, what if a 7.62x39 die was shortened on the bottom end to full length resize something like a 30-30 to make a straight case with a fat hind side.

    No way this would work for the project at hand but I'm gonna file it away in the possibles bag for that gun show find waiting over the horizon.

  2. #2
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    umm the 30-30 comes to mind right off.
    I'd try something like 30grs of black powder to start.

    you could always push a 308 case in a 300 savage die and get the modern equivalent to the old version but with a more parallel neck and the downside of a sharper shoulder which would raise your BP pressure about 5 thousand psi.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Except the 30-30 was never loaded with BP!
    It was 30 grains smokeless.
    The venerable Winchester 94 came in 32-40 and 38-55 BP rounds + 30-30 and 32SPL smokeless.

    You dont need a lube cookie, duplex and all your fouling trouble is gone.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    The nature of the action could be important. I have seen an old falling-block rifle with a chamber mentioned in no source I know, but which corresponds very satisfactorily to what you would get with a .300H&H die ground at the bottom to .45-70 length, and the .300H&H chamber reamer used short. That will have a very satisfactorily long neck. If you need a rimless case you could similarly treat the .284 Winchester, which has a rebated rim to fit the standard Mauser or .30-06 bolt face.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy ofitg's Avatar
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    Didn't the British .303 start off as a blackpowder cartridge?
    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."

    - Thomas Jefferson


  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Look at the old 32-40. It would be a slight change fron 32 cal to 30 cal bullets a nice straight walled case with a rim. You might even get buy with just an expander change in the die or you may have to convert the sizing die to a bushing. The 32-40 was a well used trget cartridge back in the day and was good to 200yds or so.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofitg View Post
    Didn't the British .303 start off as a blackpowder cartridge?
    No, it just started off with black powder... The ballistic advantages of small calibres, fast twist and elongated bullet were well known, but accompanied by fouling problems unacceptable in a military rifle. They knew that the French had developed a "chemical powder" which solved that problem, and were sure they were going to have their own, but they didn't have it by the time the Lee-Metford was adopted in 1888.

    So the first propellant was a single pierced pellet of compressed black powder, a technology which probably derived from the military Congreve rockets which mostly missed Fort McHenry, and had been found insufficiently consistent in the Snider conversion of the muzzle-loading rifle. sights were calibrated for about 50ft./sec. ( a good guess) higher velocity than black powder would provide. Cordite was introduced in 1891, and black powder was certainly just a temporary expedient.

  8. #8
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    You could try the .32-35 Stevens, which can be approximated closely enough by shortening .30-30 cases and running them into a .32-40 FLS die. The original bore diameter was 0.312" or so, with a 16" twist (IIRC) but I made one up with a 10" twist barrel in 0.308" caliber and it seems to shoot well, with properly sized boolits. Haven't really wrung it out, and haven't tried black powder in it; other projects seem to get in the way.

    Your bolt action would have to be a single shot, or modified for rimmed cartridges, of course. Or you could make a "rimless" version from that new short .270 cartridge based on the .30 Remington case.

    I do fire duplexed black powder loads in an original .32-35 rifle which unaccountably has a 0.319" barrel, chambers the shortened .30-30 cases with no problem, and it shoots very well. In this modern era of "short, stubby, more efficient cartridges," I'm surprised that this one has been so thoroughly overlooked.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy ofitg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    No, it just started off with black powder... The ballistic advantages of small calibres, fast twist and elongated bullet were well known, but accompanied by fouling problems unacceptable in a military rifle. They knew that the French had developed a "chemical powder" which solved that problem, and were sure they were going to have their own, but they didn't have it by the time the Lee-Metford was adopted in 1888.

    So the first propellant was a single pierced pellet of compressed black powder, a technology which probably derived from the military Congreve rockets which mostly missed Fort McHenry, and had been found insufficiently consistent in the Snider conversion of the muzzle-loading rifle. sights were calibrated for about 50ft./sec. ( a good guess) higher velocity than black powder would provide. Cordite was introduced in 1891, and black powder was certainly just a temporary expedient.
    So, you're saying that the cartridge was adopted in 1888, and loaded with blackpowder until the Cordite load was adopted in 1892..... but it didn't start off as a blackpowder cartridge?????

    Evidently the phrase "start off" has different meanings on our respective sides of the pond.
    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto."

    - Thomas Jefferson


  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ofitg View Post
    So, you're saying that the cartridge was adopted in 1888, and loaded with blackpowder until the Cordite load was adopted in 1892..... but it didn't start off as a blackpowder cartridge?????

    Evidently the phrase "start off" has different meanings on our respective sides of the pond.
    That's the way it happened, though. The space shuttle Enterprise started out with glide tests, but on neither side of the Atlantic was it a glider.

  11. #11
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    Laughing at the Trivia Point. "Enterprise" was never intended to launch into Space as it was Not set up for the thermal Tiles required to protect its Aluminum Alloy Structure and skins. I believe It would classify as a 'Production Prototype' and Flying Test Vehicle.
    Did it have engines? From what I remember it was Fitted With RCS and OMS engines but not actual 'Flight' Main engines.
    The design was A Cheaper Compromise from a Fully Reusable Design that Congress decided was too expensive to build in quantities proposed. Even then, The Program was cut short from the Original Proposed fleet and 'Vigorous' operating launch rate.
    Just What I remember from the Era.

    Chuckling,
    Chev. William

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Yep, the original idea was to take off from a run way. And we had the tech to make it work.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    30-30 Wesson

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    32 winchester special was loaded with BP but even after smokeless came along it still kept the 1x16" twist same as the 32-40. But when heavier bullets began to be used in the 32-40 rifling twists were made faster to stabilize them. Frank

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    OP was asking about .30 Cal. BP cartridges, not .32.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    303 was designed with a view to smokeless. It began life loaded as a BP cartridge. OK?

    30-40 is virtually the twin of the 303, so another option.

    I would be looking at the Russian 7.62x54R or the "Three Line Cartridge" as originally designated. Similar late 19th century design (inftroduced in 1891), also originally designed for smokeless but loaded with BP during both the Russo-Japanese fracas and WWI due to supply issues. Originally designed for a 210 RN cupro-nickel jacketed bullet, I think the neck is long enough to take something like the 311284 but a @ 170-180 grs boolit might deliver better performance over BP. 64 grs H20 capacity, so more than both 303 and 30-40 giving perhaps a little more power.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    So, you're saying that the cartridge was adopted in 1888
    December '88 to be exact - read all about the caliber
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British
    Regards
    John

  18. #18
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    I have been using my donated can of 4F BP to load 100 gr Lee .30 cal boolits in my Nagant Revolver (I think Nobade in NM put me onto that). It's not much of a case, but it is straight walled and .30 cal. In a rifle, the boolits could be seated long. The original revolver loading called for that weird gas seal which requires the boolits to be seated completely inside the case.

    Wayne
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    Venison is free-range, organic, non-GMO and gluten-free

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Buy a Moisin in 7.62x54 and shoot the 7.92mm boolits in it. .314" out of the mold should be just about perfect...

  20. #20
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    Has anyone considered reforming a .30 carbine case from the slight tapered rimless design to a Straight Cylinder semi rimmed design? The .336 mouth O.D. would be about right for the Straight cylinder Diameter so the base would be Swaged down from about .355" and the rim would stay at .360" diameter. I am guessing case length would stay at about the original 1.290" or possibly lengthen slightly with the Swaging process. since the original is designed for 40,000psi or more it should easily support BP use.

    Just Thinking of possibilities,
    Chev. William

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check