Some basic questions from a newbe

[Oyeboten]

Tons of info of course here, about paper Patching, how to, variations, kinds of Paper, ways of wrapping...

What I am not finding though, is any basic information about why one would Paper Patch in the first place.

Done right, does Paper Patching increase Velocity?

Does it increase Accuracy?

Does it save on Bore wear?

If one Lube the Paper Patch, does it do a better job of Lubricating the Bullet/Bore, than captive Lube in open Lube Grooves would have?

Does anyone Paper Patch for Hand Gun Cartridges? Or is there a Velocity threshold, past which, Paper Patching starts to be worthwhile, and below which, it is not worthwhile?

Thanks!

[moto357]

I have my own reasons for PP boolits. I'm a bit of a do it yourselfer. And I wanted to make my own bullets, but not have to drop loads to typical cast boolit shooting. My answer was PP, plus I'm able to make my own molds so boolit profile/length/weight were what I wanted. I enjoy the extra time tinkering making patches and boolits, so this was my answer. Turned out to be an addicting bonus when I saw how accurate I can get em to shoot and with a clean shiny bore afterwards.

My father, who also reloads and casts has me make PP loads for him to hunt with, he likes them as well.

And let's not leave out the cool factor!

[M-Tecs]

PP boolits in high velocity rifles can be normally pushed faster without leading issues. For the BPCR & BPTR paper patching has different advantages but I not qualified to comment since I haven't played in that area yet.

Couple of good sticky's on this. Start with this one. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...paper-patching

[Old Coot]

Do you hunt with cast bullets? If so paper patch can let you shoot a softer (even dead soft pure lead) up to about 2000fps, ande give you an expanding bullet that will not lead your bore. Brodie

[barrabruce]

The statement above is about all the reason you could want.


Plus I get better than jword accuracy and velocity out of my gun ...which is not saying much but I'll throw it out there is you have a non run of the mill bore dimensioned barrel.

Plus I'm not reliant on a company still making a bullet or the lgs stocking it.

One doesn't need special blend of lube which takes up 116 pages of forum thread to work or even special unobtainium paper.

Beats gas checked lubed things hands down as far as I'm concerned.

The only special tool I have is a home made sizing die for the core.
Hell I get very good accuracy by just twisting the paper patched bullets into fired cases for my gun.
I only really need away to get the primer out and in again.
and some way to charge the case.

Your precious cases last for a very long time if look after them.

[Oyeboten]

Do you hunt with cast bullets? If so paper patch can let you shoot a softer (even dead soft pure lead) up to about 2000fps, ande give you an expanding bullet that will not lead your bore. Brodie

Hmmmm!

And, I gather...the Bullet does not need to have 'Lube Grooves', and or may even be better off without them, when one Paper Patches?

[Oyeboten]

Do you hunt with cast bullets? If so paper patch can let you shoot a softer (even dead soft pure lead) up to about 2000fps, ande give you an expanding bullet that will not lead your bore. Brodie

No Hunting with me...but, getting interested in loading for my only Rifle ( and also am now getting back to loading for various old Hand Guns ).

I have a model 1920 SAVAGE in 250 3000, ( Iron sights ) and I would like to begin some experiments for Loading with Plain Lead ( or a Lead Alloy if it turns out to be necessary ) and for Paper Target at about 100 Yards or so...and to find out what Bullet Weights in Lead, will work with my Rifling Twist rate ( which norally takes the 87 Grain, Copper Patch Bullet ).

Possibly Paper patching would be a nice way to go with this.

[Oyeboten]

PP boolits in high velocity rifles can be normally pushed faster without leading issues. For the BPCR & BPTR paper patching has different advantages but I not qualified to comment since I haven't played in that area yet.

Couple of good sticky's on this. Start with this one. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...paper-patching

I did read through quite a bit of that and some other Threads.

What was not clear to me, was what the reason or advantage was with paper Patching...and, also, what does one do for Lube if Paper Patching with Cast Lead Bullets for a medium or higher Velocity Rifle?

[kokomokid]

I paper patch bpcr so I can not help you here but when I read of col Harrison and his NRA shooting of a 30 cal to 3000 fps and being accurate to 1000 yds with cast pp bullets it sure gives me the want to.

[wmitty]

To try and answer your questions:

A. velocity generally can be increased using p.p. with an alloy of the same hardness as used in a naked lubed boolit

B. accuracy can be excellent with both types of boolits

C. in relation to naked boolits, I don't know if bore wear is greater with p.p.

D. lubing a p.p. boolit is very easy in relation to lube groove boolits; no lubrisizer or even pan lubing required. Not sure if it'd be correct to say one method is better than the other, though. To me, getting the boolit to the target without leading the bore is the objective, along with minimal bore wear; so both methods are satisfactory.

E. there are some posts regarding patching for handguns; I don't because I fail to see the advantage for the velocities I'm interested in trying to shoot. I'm set up to lube naked boolits and look at p.p.ing as being a higher performance level which requires some skills with my hands that are getting tougher ( at 63) to perform than simply running boolits thru a lubrisizer. If I'd been introduced to paper patching at a younger age I'd probably see things differently.

Try it with the .250-3000 and see what you think.

[barrabruce]

Hmmmm!

And, I gather...the Bullet does not need to have 'Lube Grooves', and or may even be better off without them, when one Paper Patches?

The lube grooves or what is left of them anchor the patch firmly to the bullet.
Most people I have heard of using slicks knurl up the core using files or a tool made for doing so .
With smokeless one tends to need that as where blackpowder they're doesn't seem to be the need.

[Huvius]

I've never patched a boolit smaller than .358" and am thinking that as a first go, patching those little boolits may be a headache.
May want to look at powder coating as an option for the 250-3000

[Oyeboten]

To try and answer your questions:

A. velocity generally can be increased using p.p. with an alloy of the same hardness as used in a naked lubed boolit

B. accuracy can be excellent with both types of boolits

C. in relation to naked boolits, I don't know if bore wear is greater with p.p.

D. lubing a p.p. boolit is very easy in relation to lube groove boolits; no lubrisizer or even pan lubing required. Not sure if it'd be correct to say one method is better than the other, though. To me, getting the boolit to the target without leading the bore is the objective, along with minimal bore wear; so both methods are satisfactory.

E. there are some posts regarding patching for handguns; I don't because I fail to see the advantage for the velocities I'm interested in trying to shoot. I'm set up to lube naked boolits and look at p.p.ing as being a higher performance level which requires some skills with my hands that are getting tougher ( at 63) to perform than simply running boolits thru a lubrisizer. If I'd been introduced to paper patching at a younger age I'd probably see things differently.

Try it with the .250-3000 and see what you think.

Thank you!

I am getting the picture now.

I will try it!!

I am amazed the Paper stays on while the Bullet travels through the Barrel, especially if goinf 3000 FPS.

Fascinating!

So, does the paper then tend to come off right about as the Bullet is out of the Muzzle? Or, is there any way to know? ( Other than high speed photography ).

[Oyeboten]

The lube grooves or what is left of them anchor the patch firmly to the bullet.
Most people I have heard of using slicks knurl up the core using files or a tool made for doing so .
With smokeless one tends to need that as where blackpowder they're doesn't seem to be the need.

Okay...I copy...I can knurl by rolling and pressing with a File...I understand that perfectly...sounds good!

[Oyeboten]

I've never patched a boolit smaller than .358" and am thinking that as a first go, patching those little boolits may be a headache.
May want to look at powder coating as an option for the 250-3000

Well, I am all interested now in Paper Patching..!

So, now, nothing else will do!

I realy love the old SAVAGE Bolt Rifle and the 250 3000 is an interestig Cartridge in it's way.

Casting my own Boolets, and Paper Patching for it, will be really a nice thing to do I think.

Also, it will sure beat the heck out of searching for then paying for Factory Cartridges in the 87 Grain Bullet weight which this Model Rifle prefers, since those are hard to find now, and costly.

So, this will be perfect.

[Oyeboten]

Thank you all very much for helping me understand Paper Patching.

This has filled me in to where I now feel I have the idea clearly, and I will just have to work out a Mold, Bullet nose shape ( if loading to full speed ), decide Bullet Diameter and be experimenting and keeping Notes.

Much appreciated!!

[Digital Dan]

MV is 1,600 fps.

Stuff dies fair quick.

[Digital Dan]

Thank you all very much for helping me understand Paper Patching.

This has filled me in to where I now feel I have the idea clearly, and I will just have to work out a Mold, Bullet nose shape ( if loading to full speed ), decide Bullet Diameter and be experimenting and keeping Notes.

Much appreciated!!

Is a fairly simple process actually. Assuming you're looking at smokeless loads???? If so, fix bullet diameter at bore to bore +.001". Subtract this figure from groove diameter and patch to groove-groove +.001". It is not unusual to wind up with the number .008" as a result. 9# onionskin usually mics about .0025" dry, .002" when wet. Make a template to cut your paper (should have at least 25% rag content), craft a small surface to roll the bullet onto the patch, grid lines help for alignment. The length of your patch should be such that it neither under or over laps ends. Precision is important. Typically you will find better accuracy with about 1/8" of patch end FOLDED over the base of the bullet rather than a longer segment twisted. Use of card wads is mostly related to pressure...my .44 requires that at max load. The bullet in the proceeding post is 300 grains, pure lead and swaged as a flat base round nose of about 2 ogive radius and a .25" meplate. The bullet was recovered under the hide of a deer of about 190# live wt. after breaking the foreleg, 2 ribs, cutting the heart in half, breaking 3 ribs on the way to breaking the off side leg. It lost 3 grains of weight in all the excitement.

The patch strip was lubed by finger with a blend of 50/50 beeswax/Vaseline by volume after an overnight dry on the patch. The bullets are not sized at any time in the process.

Different weight onionskin has different thicknesses. You can find what you need with a minor amout of effort. Friend uses dress pattern paper with three wraps to load a .45-70; it mics at .0015" dry. 510 grain bullets at 1800 fps, sub MOA at the 100 yard line. T-Rex trembles.

Luck to ya

[Oyeboten]

Thank you Digital Dan!

My ( only ) Rifle is a 1920 SAVAGE Bolt Action, Iron Sights, in 250 3000 and it likes the 87 Grain Factory Loads ( rather than the heavier ones, this being because it has a different Twist Rate than the SAVAGE m1899s, and or most other makes chambering this Cartridge ).

So, I would be using Smokeless for this.

It looks like such a little tiny Bullet to me, when just looking say, at an 87 Grain .257 Mold for it.

I found a Mold at a local Gun Store and I am waiting for them to let me know what they want for it.

Swaged would be better I suppose, and with no lube Grooves, but, I will get the Mold if it is reasonable.

I will make an ample size Kit Box which will keep all my Paper Patching related items together and safe, and complete, and organized.

Thank you for these details!

I can load a few very low powder Cartridges, and recover a non deformed Bullet by firing into some Sawdust or something..or just push one through manually with a Brass Rod, and measure the Bullet then to see what diameter it shows. Giving me a basis then for determining the final OD to acheive with the Patching.

I have a Sizing Press now ( thanks to one of the kind members here who had replied to my Want Ad ) so, I should be able to size my Cast Boolits if need be.

[Digital Dan]

That is a wee bullet for patching but it can be done well enough. That comes from a fella that patched round balls with paper a few years back with success. It is a curious art, but fact of it is they shot well, and fast. Was up to around 2400 fps before it all fell apart at the 50 yard line. Betcha you never thought a .44 Mag could run that fast, hey? Near about 2200-2250 fps was the honey hole with those and when I wrapped the project up I asked myself, "Why?". Never got an answer. If I ever run across Ross Seyfried I'll ask him, he's the nut that got me started on it.

Your assessment about twist rates is correct, but if you ever get around to wanting a mould that casts smooth sides, get in touch with Steve Brooks at http://brooksmoulds.com/ He does top notch custom work and will meet spec pretty much dead center. Figure your dims, profile, and alloy, the result will rain bullets. Quick turn around as well. You might also want to fiddle a little with a stability calculator or other online resources when designing such things as conventional perceptions regarding bullet length/twist are a little off base for lead bullets. Has to do with density and form mostly and it packs more weight into less length. My long way of saying you can run heavier bullets in that rifle if you get over the thought they need to be all pointy ended and stuff. They will have a longer shank and be easier to patch as well.

Low tech, good info:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bi...&density=11.00

Lotsa ballistic gak...

http://www.jbmballistics.com/

Bullets on the lower section are a .30 caliber Brooks bullet. They cast .310 w/30:1 alloy, weigh 183.5 grains and are just a bit over 1" long. Calculated BC is .39 and performance supports that close enough I don't worry about it. 1050 fps at the muzzle and 1/2" wads at the 50 yard line is good enough for pigs. He offered to make this one smooth sided but patching was not really an option as it is used in a suppressed rifle. It could nonetheless be paper patched quite easily.