PP ML bullets

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

I’m having a muzzleloading rifle built with a Green Mountain barrel blank: 1:18 twist, 0.450” / 0.457” bore & groove. I plan to shoot paper patched bullets and I’m looking for a mold now. My inclination is to get a smooth-sided, adjustable mold that casts 0.440” cup based bullets and wrap twice with 0.0025” paper (9 pound?). This will give a 0.450” finished bullet, which should load easily, and being pure lead on top of black powder, I expect it to “bump up” to fill the grooves.

This will be my first foray into shooting paper patched bullets. Am I on the right track here?

Thanks, Tom

[johnson1942]

you have it down perfect. i just sold a 1/18 twist 45 cal muzzle loading rife to a police officer in ill. it shoots a 400 grain to 625 grain bullet with extreme accuracy. iuse about 80 grains of real black or blackhorn209 powder in it and both worked very well. the bullet were sized to .440. i double dry wrapped with 9 pound paper or single wrapped with 18 pound freezer wrap paper. used 60 thousands fiber wad between bullet and powder. your gun will shoot as far as you want very very accurately. keep us in the loop.

[BrentD]

While I would prefer a 16 twist, I use an 18 also.

The best available bullet, and a very good one indeed is this one from BACO http://www.buffaloarms.com/Bullet_Mo...px?TERM=Jim443

It, or one nearly identical to it, placed 1st and 2nd this year at Oak Ridge and has won 2 of the last 3 spring matches there.

depending on your bore, you may need to size it down slightly after patching it. I size mine down to .448 as my bore is quite tight (Hoyt barrel, Pope Rifling).

82 gr of swiss 1.5 powder gets it done. I would not even consider trying other powders at this point.

LDPE wads work best for me. Fiber wads are okay, but have not been as accurate or precise.

DO NOT buy an adjustable mould for long range shooting. It will, necessarily, have a flat nose. You don't want that. You really don't.

Your 9# paper will be thinner (or should be). My 9# paper adds 0.007" to the diameter of a bullet, thus, I start at .444 or .443" for the naked bullet. .440" is too small.

[Lead pot]

I shot that bullet at the Montana 1000 with the same load. It is a very good shooter. I also have one for the .44 that is identical but down sized just like it.

[Tatume]

Why would one choose a tapered paper patched bullet over one with parallel sides?

[Good Cheer]

Does anyone machine smooth sided cavities in old iron blocks?
I've thought about going that route with a set of abused blocks that someone on the interseine sold to me as being in good condition.

[BrentD]

I would forget about cup bases. They off no advantage and are a PITA to cast l.

Who said anything about tapered bullets?

[Lead pot]

A cup base serves no purpose other then tucking a twisted tail into. A twisted tail on a flat based bullet is death for accuracy.

[Tatume]

I would forget about cup bases. They off no advantage and are a PITA to cast l.

Who said anything about tapered bullets?

I've been looking at molds, and saw that some are tapered and some are straight sided.

[Huvius]

I'm thinking that loading a parallel sided boolit will be more predictable in a ML.
With a tapered boolit, a tip on your loading rod which centers the boolit would be needed for any consistency - think of a top punch for a lubesizer.
Seems like a tapered boolit is more appropriate for a breech loader.

You are on the right track and that mold at BuffaloArms looks darn good and is a proven boolit.
I'm guessing that when GM says it has a .450" bore, it will have a .450" bore but you will not know if all of your figuring will be right until you have the rifle, boolits and paper in hand to see how they like each other. A patched boolit that just slides down the barrel with a push is what you are looking for but even a boolit .001" bigger is very noticeably harder or impossible to seat as the patch is less forgiving than one would think. May need to change paper or even resize the bare or patched boolit to get just the right fit.

[johnson1942]

wow i cant believe the negative info about cupped bases. i swage all my pp bullets for muzzleloaders and my two 45/70/s. they have deep cupped bases this stout lips, not thin lips. they not only have the base paper twist hid but their is one more thing they do that is very important. i still use a 60 thousands wad behind them. when that wad push against the cupped base it bumps up alot easier than a flat base. a slightly harder bullet can be used with a cupped base. recovered bullets show the cupped base is shorter and they are completely bumped up. they also drag a air bubble along with the bullet at the base which acts the same as a feather on a arrow. if they are of no use and of a hinderance, why do i get groups that are as good as they get consistanly? must be luck or a fluke. a .440 straight sided cupped base bullet for a .450 fast twist muzzle loader shoot holes in holes. i also have found with a lot of testing that and very short round nose bullet is more accurate than a long pointed bullets at the ft per second shot from a muzzle loader. the only exception is a fellow who isnt a member here but where he lives wins the 500 yard shoots with his modern inline custom built for just such a contest. he shoots a very long pointed bullet with a deep cup in it with stout lips around the cup. he shoots it over 2000 ft per second. about 2200 ft per second. instead of wheel weight lead he casts them with 20 to 1 and adds a very small amount of 700 degree silver solder to the mix. his nose doesnt bend over and the last ive heard he wins every match. if your getting bad groups with the cupped bases it may be the length of the bullet and the nose of it. the length of the bullet is far more important that the weight for the twist of your rifle. the fellow who is winning all the 500 yard matches in his area, his bullet weighs 390 grains. but the length is perfect according to my math for shooting from 500 yards to 1000 yards. the length of the nose and the deep cupped base make his bullet, again, only weight 390 grains. his competitors cant figure out why he can win with that bullet and some wont even talk to him. science wins every time if the shooters are all good shooters.

[Lead pot]

Johnson.
I swage also. But I mostly gave up swaging because I don't see an advantage over casting with the quality custom moulds you can get now days. I started swaging back in the mid 50's and again in the 60's when I could not get quality bullets for my needs and I still have two swage presses from both Corbins.

But I will say this, if it works for you to your satisfaction with the accuracy your getting I always say don't fix what aint broke.

This is why I quit using cup based bullets. I have recovered to many cup based bullets from working up loads. Bullets for the .40, 45 and .50 and with all these calibers I have found to many with the patches still attached to the base and the bottom of the shanks that got wrinkled from the softer rims of the cupped base getting pushed forward. This just does accuracy any justice when this happens.
I made new base punches and changed some that came with the dies to a thicker skirt or dish based to hold the skirts from wrinkling the portion of the shank that is in the case and it works just fine this way.
What is the purpose using a cup base if you don't use a twisted patch tail? I also have seen bases with the patch just folded over the skirt that had the folded patch deform the skirts worse then a over diameter bullet making severe uneven fins.
Kurt

[BrentD]

I am with Kurt also. I used to swage my bullets. I had two Corbin presses, one from each brother. I sold them for a healthy profit because cast bullets work at least as well and actually better. I swaged cupped and flat-base bullets and shot them side-by-side identical in all other respects. Neither did better than the other. If you want to cut the base, have a cup base. They won't make you shoot better. Doesn't matter whether you use a muzzleloader or a cartridge rifle.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

a few thoughts on this subject.
firstly, unless you have a false muzzle, the patched bullet must be able to be loaded and shot in a time limit, without damaging the patch.
it must also have enough friction in the bore to hold it in place on the powder when loaded.
the general feeling on this is that if the weight of the ramrod is enough to push the bullet down all the way, the patched bullet diameter is optimum.
the major advantage of bore diameter bullets is that when fitting correctly, they align correctly with the axis of the bore.
to do this they require parralell sides.
history tell us that picket rifles had tapered bullets, and they died in favour of better bullets.
most of the taper disappears when the bullet bumps up anyway.
soft bullets certainly bump up well.
however this also happens in the nose, degrading b.c., and possibly putting the bullet off balance if they slump sideways.
among the best long range muzzle loaders were those developed by metford.
bullets were not only parralell sided, but hardened with tin and antimony.
he felt that bullets too soft bumped up to such an extent that there was excessive friction in the bore - enough to rob at least 50 fps from the muzzle velocity.
he proved this with a chronograph.
this suggests using the hardes parralell sided bullet that works, which will require some experimentation.
keep safe,
bruce.

[johnson1942]

if you guys want to read my article on ramshot.com then go to the blog section you will see in my muzzleloaders i use the chase single wrap system and use 18 pound freezer wrap paper. the paper always comes off at the muzzle in one piece and never ever sticks to the bullet. never ever had that happen with dry wrapping number nine paper to a bullet 2 wraps. i dont twist tails i fold them over on to the base. the best most consistant method is single wrap with 18 pound paper and if the bore is over sized then use 20 pound computer paper. no lube. never ever use a starter, wrap as i load. this fall im going to hunt with a custom inline 50 cal 1/32 twist. will use the single wrap system and about a 500 grain pp bullet. use about 120 grains of 209 powder and a 9 power scope. its a freight train a coming and pin point accurate. casting is as good as swageing but i have the tools and to me it is alot easier.

[Huvius]

Don't forget that a parallel sided swaging setup allows you to tailor your boolit length and weight.
This is good for me as I load patched .45s for a target rifle as well as a few sporters which like a lighter boolit. All from the same swage dies.
That, and you can choose a flat or cupped base as you wish.

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

Now I'm wondering about bearing length and short range accuracy in a 45 caliber PP ML hunting rifle. Among the configurations I'm considering it appears I can choose anywhere from 0.50" to 1.00" straight sides (not counting the nose) in the weight range that interests me. What should be a minimum adequate bearing length for accurate 150 yard shooting?

Thanks, Tom

[BrentD]

Tom, no offense intended, but I think you are overthinking this issue a bunch. Any reasonable bullet length is going to be fine for bearing length. Bearing length is no more or less an issue with paper patch bullets and it is any other bullet. So, choose a bullet that makes you happy, and gets the job done, that is all that matters.

Personally, I use a 450 grain flat nose pure lead bullet most of the time for my hunting rifles. Undoubtedly, that bullet is way over what is required to kill a whitetail at any distance. But it's what works it's on hand, and it gets the job done. Bearing surface is probably on the order of, I don't know, certainly less than three quarters of an inch. Maybe 5/8 of an inch. But whatever it is, it certainly isn't important.

[Lead pot]

Here is a .444 diameter bullet I have a swage die for that is a close reproduction of a Gibbs/Medford and I also have a .432 diameter for the .44 calibers cast from a adjustable mould that Steve Brooks made for me. This is a very good shooting bullet for both calibers. The .444" swage I use for cold cast bullets I save for cores for this die and I run them through reducing them in length to fill them out so they are uniform and I use then for range trigger time and and a hunting bullet, they shoot very good.
I have a friend that shoots a slug gun and he asked me if I had some for him to try out so I gave him 50 and a few days later he showed me his target he shot a few yards short of 200 and he said I would like you to make more for me I said, man I have a hard time keeping me in supply why don't you buy a roll of lead wire and just get down in my mole den and swage you own. It didn't take him long using up that 25# roll of wire several times