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Thread: 357AR (Max-Rimless) from 223/5.56 cases

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Moleman
    Can you give us some specs and more info on how you made the expanders. I have been collecting 223 brass every time I go to the range and I have been thinking about trying to make 357 rimless, but not sure on how to expand properly. This would be used in a Mike Bellm chambered T/C 12" 357Max bbl. I can have one of my sons make the expander's as he is in Tool and Die
    I'm the King of my castle---anytime my wife's not around
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  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    Is anyone else amused at how close this is getting to the .351WSL?

  3. #23
    Boolit Mold
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    Is anyone else amused at how close this is getting to the .351WSL?
    Not really the 357 AR is shorter loaded hotter has different dia bullet an uses a different rim diameter ( .373") and is MI an other states legal for deer hunting and the 351 is not . Brass is almost free if you know were to look for the 357 AR .

    Sure there close but so is a 357 mag .

    351WSL
    The rim diameter is .407" and the head diameter is .380". Cartridge overall length is 1.90". Jacketed bullet diameter is .351", not the standard .357"-.358" used by modern .35 caliber cartridges. Size cast bullets to .352". The maximum average pressure should not exceed 39,000 psi.

    Interesting round however .

  4. #24
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    The 351WSL cartridge did come up a few years back when I was making the first reamer since it's performance is so close to 357Max. Most of the loads I've used so far are faster than book loads for 357Max since the allowable pressure is higher. There is also the 357 auto and the 357 rimless mag (223 ar15) both of which have the similar case mouth and rim diameters. Years ago someone once told me in the world of wildcats it's all likely been tried by someone at some point. I know rimless 357Max cases have been made before, and there is plenty of load data out there for hotter 357Max loads. I was just focusing this based on getting them to feed and cycle out of an ar15 while still being able to use cheap standard die sets.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master





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    Even having to spring for a set of custom dies,you would still be ahead of the game with brass being available/ or make it yourself.
    I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left.
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  6. #26
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    Ubetcha,
    I'm using them in a Lee die set, so the measurements of the threaded area may be different for your application. I also used a cheap hardware bolt with the inner head surface cleaned up so it wouldn't try to kick the head off to one side. If I were to make them again I'd just use some bar stock and knurl the tops. The threaded section is 5/8"-24tpi and 1/2" long plus the head. The stems were made of 1/2" hardened O1 drill rod and turned with a 1/2 long 5/16" stem that was pressed into the bolt head. There is a short 1/8"-3/16"section that is at 1/2" diameter to make a shoulder so the stem cannot be pushed up into the die any further in use. The top sections are the same on both expander stems so onto the differences.

    The skinny expander stem is 1.65" long including the 1/8" shoulder. The top diameter is .355" and the bottom diameter is .170" with the bottom rounded off.

    The blunt expander is 1.7" long including the shoulder. The top diameter is .358" and about 1.25" long. Then it tapers down to 1.45 at .3" diameter. Then tapers down again to 1.55" at .2" dia.

    The corners of the tapers were rounded off and the stems were hardened and polished before they were pressed into the bolt heads. None of the diameters are really critical.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks Moleman. I will pass the info to my son and see what he can do. This caliper is fairly new to me, but have shot it in IHMSA silhouettes with out any real sight setting yet and have done fairly well. been about a 30 out of 40 targets with guess hold over. I really like this caliper. Need to spend time getting scope settings. I just retired yesterday, so hope to have more time to get settings
    I'm the King of my castle---anytime my wife's not around
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  8. #28
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moleman- View Post
    Hunting season is just around the corner
    It's here. It's already getting down to almost 80 degrees at night. Scrapes soon then looking for rub lines.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    Hi ashhoe! Met with the farmer last night and signed all the paperwork for the next 12 months so my son and I have a nice quiet spot to hunt. Hope to get in a little squirrel hunting before bow hunting. I was thinking about sending you a pm on Gunco to see if you've got your upper shooting yet.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by .455 Webley View Post
    Is anyone else amused at how close this is getting to the .351WSL?
    I think this is a very interesting comparison. The .351SL in the M1907 was an evolutionary step up from the M1905 and it's shorter, weaker cartridge. The semi automatic rifle was becoming very popular in the early part of the last century, much the same as the AR now. It may have been a tenth or so longer and the projectile a tiny bit smaller, but this cartridge (that has been kicked around for some years) is a natural evolutionary step in the AR platform, and I fully expect that the more it's done, the more it will catch on.

    Personally, I've been considering have a Reamer made for some time to rectify a horrible Contender barrel in .357 Max, but you can bet your bippy I would be all over a AR barrel if the cost came down.

    *the portion of the post fuelled by a migraine driven brain fart deleted*
    Last edited by Hamish; 07-30-2016 at 10:20 PM.
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    I'd love it if 223 basic were available. There was a article a few years back in one of the gun rags where they went to Hornady. One of the pictures showed a bin of unfinished 223 cases that hadn't been necked down yet. I sent Hornady an email and got a layer type answer about the unfinished cases are unavailable due to liability reasons. A little annoying knowing that I'm straightening back out cases that were straight walled at one point.
    Last edited by Moleman-; 07-30-2016 at 10:41 PM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    A fellow wildcater sent me a few 223 cylindrical cases from Buffalo Arms. They would only need trimmed to length and likely reamed in order to make 357AR 357Max-rimless, or a longer wildcat which is what he is going for. The cases look very good and although they aren't cheap, they would be a real time saver for forming 357AR cases. https://www.buffaloarms.com/223-cyli...g-cases-223cyl

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Hmmm, 1.76" long cases - As I recall the longest AR rounds are to be 2.260" - Leaving 0.50" for bullet

    Wonder what the RCBS 180grn silhouette leaves sticking out of a case and would it feed?

    Last edited by Artful; 06-06-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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  14. #34
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    Starline has a limited run of 223 basic brass, $90 for 250 cases. They'd need trimmed and possibly reamed to make 357AR (Max Rimless) which could be done in a single operation with a reamer pilot set up on your trimmer. Not really low on 357AR cases at the moment but I ordered some to test as you can never has too much brass. https://www.starlinebrass.com/whats-...w-products.cfm

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Hi moleman.Great thread.I`ll saddle up and go along for the ride.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
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  16. #36
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Moleman- View Post
    Here are some 357AR (MaxRimless) cases made from 5.56 LC-13 brass and thought I'd show the steps. A couple of guys have made the cases from 357Max brass which just involves changing the rimmed case to rimless, but I like using cheap 223 and 556 brass. So here's the steps:

    1. trim to 1.640"-1.650" and debur

    2. anneal

    3. lube inside the case and expand case mouth with skinny expander

    4. expand case body with blunt expander

    5. resize

    6. roll case shoulder wrinkle away (optional)

    7. turn necks/ream to .0105" case wall thickness

    8. trim to final length 1.595" and tumble

    9. load/shoot


    This method seems to work very well as I had no split cases out of the 40 or so I formed in this batch. Hunting season is just around the corner and I figure I'll make another 100 or so since my son is also shooting them now. Usually I've had around 5-10 cases split out of 100 when using once? fired range mystery brass. Any flaw in the case mouth of the parent case will result in a split since they are getting expanded up so much. The initial trim and debur really cuts down on losses. This batch of LC-13 cases probably would of been fine without turning/reaming, but I've had others like FC cases that wouldn't chamber without turning so I just turn them all. Really all you're reaming or turning off is where the base of the bullet would be. The two expander stems are made from a bolt (it's quick and easy) and some hardened drill rod. They just fit into a Lee 38-357 powder through die body
    Between 2 forums, and a whole bunch of posts I can recall only one that says step 5 is done with .357 max dies and a.357 taper crimp. There are too many numbers floating around. I suffering from information burn out.
    Bill

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    Any die set that will reload the 357Max will load these. I don't like having to modify die sets if I can help it. The best crimping die that I've found is the 38/357 Lyman taper crimp die as it is actually a gentle taper v/s a modified roll crimp which is very short and does better at crimping into the cannelure that crimping into the smooth bullet side so as to not effect headspace since it headspaces on the case mouth.

    The method on the first page of this thread is for modifying 223 cases to straight walled 357AR cases, where as on other sites they mostly talk about converting Starline 223 basic brass. Add in that there is a little bit of technique or finesse involved using different tools and methods and case brands. It's best to do a few cases all the way through to verify your method is producing good cases with your setup than it is to modify everything only to discover they're a little off.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Moleman- View Post
    Any die set that will reload the 357Max will load these. I don't like having to modify die sets if I can help it. The best crimping die that I've found is the 38/357 Lyman taper crimp die as it is actually a gentle taper v/s a modified roll crimp which is very short and does better at crimping into the cannelure that crimping into the smooth bullet side so as to not effect headspace since it headspaces on the case mouth.

    The method on the first page of this thread is for modifying 223 cases to straight walled 357AR cases, where as on other sites they mostly talk about converting Starline 223 basic brass. Add in that there is a little bit of technique or finesse involved using different tools and methods and case brands. It's best to do a few cases all the way through to verify your method is producing good cases with your setup than it is to modify everything only to discover they're a little off.
    You are so correct, I got bogged down with .308's and 458 socom that some of my equipment accessories for the other calibers disappeared, I'm scratching for basic stuff before I made mods for case trimmers. Even my chop saw needs remodified, due to all the other case trimmer attachments. Even my .22 RCBS pilot's disappeared.
    Last edited by just bill; 08-29-2018 at 10:20 PM. Reason: Bad number

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    As an update, over at MDWS, it looks like they are getting ready to run another batch (round 4) of 357AR barrels.

    https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/...pid=1306295022

    I have one (not part of a batch) that is currently being made.

    In prep for getting the barrel, I had acquired all other parts & pieces, formed a couple hundred brass, cast up a bunch of bullets, made up dummy rounds, etc.

    To feed these rounds, removing the side ribs in a Pmag is the most common approach. Last weekend, I did a 20 round Pmag.

    One bullet up for magazine testing was the Lee 200 gr. Although I could get them to slide out of the magazine without hangup most of the time, it was pretty obvious that if the round was pushed forward (think gun recoil) the nose of the bullet would drag and hold up as it got pinched between the center rib and the side of the Pmag (see below).

    If this happens for a round down in the middle of the stack, the front of the top round is not pushed up and a jam is certain.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Well, I thought I would try my hand at another no lube groove special with a custom "357AR Profile"

    First result was 191 gr & real close to 0.358" at the base with a slight taper to 0.355" at the other end of the portion that seats in the case. Meplat is only 50%, but it was the best I could get and "fit" my modified Pmag. As is, I have a "forming die" that will put a perfect edge on the base and "bump up" the body to 0.358"

    However, I can also lap the mold to get the boolit OD for the portion in the case more uniform.

    Actually the more likely adjustment I will probably do is to make this cavity deeper to get just over 200 gr.

    I was pretty happy with the reamer. I got a good harden & temper and it cut decent. I was Ok with the finish inside the mold.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by P Flados; 12-04-2018 at 09:55 PM.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    Neat, haven't tried powder coating bullets yet but those seem like they'd feed very well. In a Bulgarian 10rnd mag or thermoold magazine (last resort) the 208gr RCBS/Lee 200gr fit, and will fit in a Pmag if you remove that nub which is a follower stop. The follower will pop up when empty and look odd, but that's about it. Pic doesn't have the cast bullet in it, but shows how the fronts are different on the Bulgarian and thermold as compared to the Pmag. Usually just use one of the bulgarian mags with them.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Bul,P,Therm.JPG  

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