PC and cast boolit swage dies?

[BT Sniper]

Taking your cast boolits and swaging them in a swage die is very easy and by all accounts should aid to the accuracy potential you guys might be looking for from your PC boolits.

The challenge is typically these swage dies are of a nominal diameter appropriate for jacketed bullets. For example a 44 cal swage die is typically about .4290" for jacketed bullets and I would imagine you guys would be looking for a 44 cal cast boolit to be about .4310" in diameter so swage dies where not really of much use to the cast boolit shooters.

Well I had been doing a bit of research on the new PC ventures and think I might have something that may be worth a try to a select few that are interested. I have been making swage dies now for many years and on occasion I get a die that finishes too big in diameter after final polish and lap, I can not offer these dies to customers that wish to make jacketed bullets as they may be a half thousandth too big but these dies may be perfect to the cast boolit shooter that wishes to swage their cast boolit before powder coating (and potentially after too) for more consistent boolits and greater accuracy potential as well as a perfect hollow point too!

I have had customers swage their lubed cast boolits and do very well in the national level shooting competitions but have yet to see anyone swage there cast boolits before or after powder coating them. I would certainly think there is potential for great things coming from a swaged lead boolit.

Here is a look at a .4305" swage die I have and some 240 grain 44 cal cast boolits I reworked in this swage die. I simply painted the three colored swaged boolits to give you all an idea of what they could look like.



I have a few of these dies offered right now on the swap and sell forms.

Good shooting!

BT

[SierraHunter]

If I remember correctly, from what I have read, powder coating adds a thousands or two to the over all bullet diameter anyway. So on say a .451" swage die, if they were seated before coating the finished product would end up at .452" or .453" anyway. If coated and then staged, I could see where the custom die could be useful, although I'm not sure that the coating would stay on during the swaging process.

[Spector]

Pretty sure it would stay on just fine post baked. Look at the powder coating after it is passed through a boolit sizing die. Smooth as a baby's butt.

Mike

[fredj338]

If it stays on during sizing, then it should under swaging??

[Dragonheart]

So as to understand, is your idea of swagging a bullet to create a more symmetrical and uniform projectile than can is typically achieved by casting?

I have a number of PC cast handgun loads that will post groups in the 1-1/2" range at 25 yards, which would be considered excellent handgun accuracy. It would be interesting to see if accuracy could be improved with swagged projectiles, especially for rifle bullets.

As far as the powder coating I can assure you it should bond and stay on the alloy as it is harder and tougher than the underlying alloy. I typically size the raw alloy bullets to uniform and reduce the diameter so they will accept a thicker coating before sizing. The PC is for all practical purposes a polymer jacket and acts as such, and like a copper jacket, thicker is better. Also like a jacketed bullet the inner core can be much softer as the projectile is riding on the jacket. A coating of .002+" build out from the substrate is what I go for.

I do find you idea interesting.

[RP]

If you can beat a PC bullet flat and it stays on swaging a PC bullet should not be any problem.

[Smk SHoe]

Once you PC, would the PC swag down to size with the lead core? I would guess that the PC has a little flexibility during the swag process, but would it spring back to original size and just leave the core swaged. I understand it's only a couple thou of an inch so may not be a issue, just thinking out loud.

[Dragonheart]

Once the PC bullet is sized it holds the size. The coating is harder that than the alloy and yet flexible and tougher than copper. The polymer bonds at the molecular level when cured and the chemical properties alter considerably. The bond is the reason when the guys pound coated bullets flat you have a colored piece of alloy. The photo shows how well bonded the coating is, also how flexible. The polymer jacket resist the torque of spin up which causes core failure in plated bullets, a reason for plated 1200 fps maximum velocity. The polymer jacket remains bonded to velocities in excess of 3K fps that I know of. As far as the polymer withstanding swagging I don't think that is an issue, my question is anything gained by swagging instead of casting as it would be a slower process.
Attachment 173213

[B. Lumpkin]

Swaged bullets will be more uniform.

[Traffer]

This may be a stupid question as I am a noob. I am swaging 22lr and am going to Powder Coat them mainly because I swage a deep hollow base in them. Is is possible to get a deep hollow base without swaging?

[2wheelDuke]

I think this idea got some real potential. I wonder if that's what Hornandy is doing with theirs.

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[KingRat]

I think this idea got some real potential. I wonder if that's what Hornandy is doing with theirs.

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The Hornady bullets have a dimple in the base same as many plated bullets that have been restriked/Swaged to size.

I think they swage them after coating and that is how they get that perfect surface.

[uncle dino]

Swaging bullets that have been powder coated works extremely well..but it is best to bump up size of bullet rather than draw it down with a swage die. With good bond of pc a .020 bump up should be no problem. D

[Dragonheart]

Swaged bullets will be more uniform.

I agree a more uniform bullet is going to be a better balanced bullet and therefore more accurate bullet. However, I think the validity of this assumption will be better proven with rifle bullets.

[Smoke4320]

Dragonheart
Funny you should say that .. I am working with BR Sniper to soon begin testing of this very fact..
he is looking for a die that will fit our project .. Then I will be swaging bullets and shooting targets to test if we can in fact prove more consistent/accurate bullets .. swaged bullet results will be posted here along with non-swaged for all to see

I have posted many targets on here of my Groups so there is nothing to hide

[RP]

Heck all of us need to do some testing BT start sending out dies lol

[Wolftracker]

I swage them, reduce to about .4505 coat, then bump them back up to .4525. Works great and they come out slick and shiny. I could probably skip the reduction but it let's me bump the PC'd bullets up to get that perfect finish and consistency. No problem with the PC staying on. Also works with pure soft lead bullets.

[Meatpuppet]

Brian, if you ever have a die that sized over to .358/359, I would be interested.

I have been following this post with a lot of interest. My son and I shoot USPSA and I usually have 10k or so 9mm ACME 147gr (No lube groove) Hi-Tek on hand for reloading on a progressive press. I dont think it would be unreasonable to "bump up" the 9mm from .356 to .358/.359 for use as plinking loads in my .357 pistols and lever action.

BTW.. I finally got the hang of using your .458 SOCOM and 44 mag swage dies. Makin' them is as fun as shooting them.

[popper]

IMHO swaging raw boolits then PC, then size would be best. How are long ogive boolits handled - nose punch as the piston? How about GC shank? Does coating allow easier removal from the die? How hard an alloy can be used without a monster press? Several of us have tossed the idea around in the last few years (for 30 cal) but you are the first to experiment, to my knowledge.

[Meatpuppet]

I would think that as far as (relatively) low pressure rounds such as 9mm go, as long as the PC coating along the driving band stays intact, it would not matter much. The ojive and metplat could distort and rupture the PC coat, but it would not make a practical difference for plinkin. I know Ive loaded soem pretty poorly casted bullets and they shot suprisingly well. For match grade accuracy, there might be a problem.

I'm new to swaging so I don't know how much effort would be needed to "bump" a round a few thousand vs. swaging a virgin round.

...but I'm willing to learn.