Where to crimp??

[Lee]

Hello, new here, and was recommended by Precision Shooters to check in here with my question, as they said that you guys would have the right answers.
Been reloading a few years now. Iv'e got a replica(Italian made) 45-70 Sharps. I've a friend who gave me a couple hundred 500 grain cast lead boolits, no gas check, nothing fancy, 3 lube grooves.
Going with most posted data, there are MinimumOverallLength listed. But these 500g babies are LOOONG. I can crimp ahead of the last groove ring, I can crimp into the shoulder of the last groove ring, or I can crimp just into the last groove ring, I suppose.
Using smokeless powders(blasphemy, I know, but please bear with me!!) does anyone have any suggestions or tips on just where one might crimp these pills??? Thank you in advance........................................... .......Lee

[jh45gun]

Hi Lee Welcome I am sure the guys will give you great advice here! Jim

[Bass Ackward]

Hello, new here, and was recommended by Precision Shooters to check in here with my question, as they said that you guys would have the right answers.
Been reloading a few years now. Iv'e got a replica(Italian made) 45-70 Sharps. I've a friend who gave me a couple hundred 500 grain cast lead boolits, no gas check, nothing fancy, 3 lube grooves.
Going with most posted data, there are MinimumOverallLength listed. But these 500g babies are LOOONG. I can crimp ahead of the last groove ring, I can crimp into the shoulder of the last groove ring, or I can crimp just into the last groove ring, I suppose.
Using smokeless powders(blasphemy, I know, but please bear with me!!) does anyone have any suggestions or tips on just where one might crimp these pills??? Thank you in advance........................................... .......Lee

Lee,

Welcome. And the answer to the question is ...... I don't know. The best results are statistically going to be where your bullet has the smallest jump in your throat. By that I mean that you will find success most often and with the widest selection of powders from that point. But since your throat length is unknown and the bullet design is unknown, it makes recommending tough.

You can either play with a seating die endlessly adjusting the length and trying to chamber the round or .... you can take a fired case and turn a jacketed bullet around backwards if it has a lose enough grip and let the throat seat it upon chambering. Then you use it to adjust your seating die depth. This will only get you close because the cast bullet may be a different diameter. Then you have to play the adjust routine any way. When you get the length, you will see the best place to crimp.

The bad news is that depending on your bullet design, it may not be an "ideal" location. And this is why guys have custom molds cut to make everything work for you. Doesn't mean that bullet won't shoot for you. Because of the weight weight, inertia will work for you. And with the loooong length, you should get good enough ignition with faster powders that it might make crimping unnecessary to reach your definition of accuracy. This would be a much bigger issue with a light bullet. I would be more concerned about your bore diameter in comparrison to the bullet. If the bullet is smaller than your bore you are going to lead. And 45 caliber is wide open with bores from .456 to .460. And the ideal bullet diameter is usually .002 bigger than that. So you also need to drive a pure lead slug into your bore to fins out where you are.

But that is the process we all need to go through and it works with any cartridge to get you close. IF you someday catch the bug and want to go the custom mold route, then a good chamber cast or throat slugging is essential to get the dimensions for you to fill this space and fit your throat.

But .... that is down the road and .... we want to keep you commin back. Welcome to the board.

[Wayne Smith]

What BA said!

[beagle]

Being that's a single shot, I wouldn't even worry about a crimp as you don't have recoil to set the bullets back as if they were in a magazine. Maybe just enough to iron the bell out straight.

I'm a firm beleiver in the ogive just touching the lands as far as seating depth. You may have to experiment and see what's more accurate.

The Browning BPCR .40/65 I had liked them touching.

So, try them seated against the lands, forget about the crimp and enjoy the shooting./beagle

[fourarmed]

The way to do it with stuff you already have: Run a cleaning rod down the bore from the muzzle until it touches the breechblock. Stick a small piece of masking tape on the rod even with the muzzle. Pull it back a few inches. Push a bullet into the chamber as far as it will go. Now bring the rod down to touch the tip of the bullet (You may want to wrap the rod with tape to center it in the bore if the rod is a thin one.) and put another piece of tape on the rod even with the muzzle. Measure the maximum overall length between the tape edges with a caliper. Seat a bullet in a case to this length, and make sure it will chamber.

As mentioned earlier, if the rounds are not subjected to rough handling, you may not want to crimp. If you do, at least you know where to start.

[BABore]

I agree with the other posters that you don't really need to crimp. If you you think you must, and there's bullet metal under the case mouth, you can use a Lee Factory Crimp die. Don't need a cannelure to crimp to with this die. A Lyman M die will also be useful for your expander die since your using PB bullets. It will help alignment and reduce lead shaving.

[jh45gun]

The Lee Universal case expanding die for belling the case works very well also. It works from 22 cal to 45 cal. I really like using one.

[Lee]

Good ideas. It sounds like a relatively easy process to find where the lands start, and how to adjust length accordingly. When I was saying crimp, I haven't really been putting any crimp in the lighter boolits I've loaded. Just that they all had what looked like a seating bevel that closely hit the MOA published in my reloading data. These 500 g don't have an obvious seating "anything", hence my reluctance to just throw something together w/o first finding out more......Lee

[versifier]

Good attitude, Lee. While the pressure ranges that cast bullets within are much lower (and infinitely safer) than those of their jacketed brethren, it's nice to be able to ask before running the risk of magically transforming an otherwise fine shooter into shrapnel. Testing in the wild blue yonder of the unknown is, in my opinion, better left to those with PBL's and paid up life insurance policies .

[Lee]

Did the boolit in chamber ritual tonight, and found where the boolit touches the lands. Now THAT"S some useful information. Loaded up two test cartridges, backed off .100" shorter than the measured OAL, and waiting for some dry! weather to chrony them. Gonna go from there and get to 1400-1500 fps. That oughta put some hurt in a critter! BTW that put my OAL at 2.800" while the MOL is stated at 2.575" to 2.700" I feel confident and safe that I wont be wearing my receiver around my neck!...................................Lee

[Bass Ackward]

Did the boolit in chamber ritual tonight, and found where the boolit touches the lands. Now THAT"S some useful information. Loaded up two test cartridges, backed off .100" shorter than the measured OAL, and waiting for some dry! weather to chrony them. Gonna go from there and get to 1400-1500 fps. That oughta put some hurt in a critter! BTW that put my OAL at 2.800" while the MOL is stated at 2.575" to 2.700" I feel confident and safe that I wont be wearing my receiver around my neck!...................................Lee

Lee,

Wow. You backed off .100 and you were still that long? Either you have a really long throat or your bullet design has a long nose or worse, the diameter is small. I'm going to guess the latter. Which is not a good sign for lead.

Why did you back off so far? Lead ain't like copper. .010 would have been farther than I would go. Oh well, everything is chalked up to education and experience.

What powder you going to use for that velocity?

[powderburnerr]

With 500 gn and bigger bullets in a single shot you do not have a set oal . almost all rifles are one in their own . after you try shooting them with the bullet backed off ,try shooting them with the bullet seated touching or set into the lands 10 tho, this may prove to be where the accuracy lies ...... Dean

[Lee]

By backing off .100" it put the crimp just in front of the first lube groove.
BLC-2 powder. Starting with 40 g and going to chrony that and work from there. (I expect that to be slow, probably around 1000 fps, if my hunch is correct.
And if I move the boolit forward the lube will be exposed. I don't think I want that. As it is there is space above the powder, so I'm not crushing it.
Bullet design has a long nose. Thats why the shell is so long. I use a Lee press and the assembled, crimped cartridge barely clears............Lee

[drinks]

With a 500gr plain base bullet, I would start with 25gr IMR4198 and expect to hit 1200-1300fps at about the 30-32gr level.

[Blackwater]

Lee, you're getting good advice, but just want to add that the quickest/easiest way I've found to determine OAL with bullet just kissing the lands, in a single shot, is to just take your rifle and place it muzzle down on a soft carpet, or lacking that, a towel (for muzzle crown protection). Then you just drop your sample bullet into the barrel, point first, and maybe tamp it down gently but a bit firmly with a pencil or something similar. This should seat it squarely into the bore and just touch the rifling with a hint of firmness. Then take your caliper, and run the depth probe down with the base of the shaft on your breech face. When the depth probe hits the base of the bullet, lock the probe in place and withdraw and read it. Do this several times, and I usually just take the longest length IF I'm sure I didn't hold the probe at an angle. Then take the bullet out and measure the OAL of the bullet, and add it to the measurement to base of bullet, and voila', you have a very close measurement of your OAL with that bullet. It's quicker and easier to do than it is to tell.

Just an FWIW.

Isn't shooting a Sharps a wonderful experience?

[Lee]

Blackwater, another good idea to try! And yes, even tho it's a repro, I really enjoy shooting that Sharps...............................Lee

[Lee]

I tried the drop in bullet suggestion. That along with the cleaning rod marks, and if my math is correct, gives me a throat of 2.25" If I'm full of it, and that is an impossible number, sing out!! I think I did it right, now just curious as to others might think.

P.S. It's a Pedersoli Sharps, loosely referred to as the "Billy Dixon Model" with a 32" barrel.....................................Thanks. ........Lee

P.P.S. Lotsa other stuff on my mind right now, so be patient if my math/thinking is off.............................Thanks............ ........Lee

[PatMarlin]

You can also buy Stoney Point OAL gage, under $20, then the case for each caliber is bout $2, or you can make your own shell cases for it.

Slick tools, and fast read.

[charlie / sw mo]

You can also buy Stoney Point OAL gage, under $20, then the case for each caliber is bout $2, or you can make your own shell cases for it.

Slick tools, and fast read.

i have found this to be the easyest and quickest way for me to determine how far out to seat the bullet. there are 2 of these tools--the one iv got takes a 5 dollar cartrige case for each cal. after i had already bought about 6 of them i found out they sell a tap kit for about 30 bucks. so i bought it --now i can make up any case i want. the threads on the tool are some goofy fine thread and that tap is almost impossible to find . one example is the 7.5 swiss they dont make the test case for--i would have saved some money had i bought the tap set to start with.
charlie in sw mo