7-08: Twisted Tail Vs. Folded

[Good Cheer]

Fixing to start on patching a couple of Lyman's 270 molds for the better 2/3's old 7-08.
Do any yall think either twisted tail versus folded a for sure better way to go? Or is it yet another one of those cases of what works?

[303Guy]

I could never get a twisted tail successfully. Wrong paper maybe. I ended up with a rolled over 'tail' with an 'eye' in the center. I finally settled for a tailless patch. My patches only just hang over the base edge or sit flush. A small overhang or roll over tended to leave rings, sometimes in the case mouth.



That said, the most accurate boolit and gun used a roll over tail. I never tried the tailless patch in that gun. Also, only certain papers will roll over.

Here is a folded over tail. It looks wet because it has just been washed.



And a rolled over tail.

[Good Cheer]

Yeah, what I've run into is needing stronger papers for twisted tails.
For folded over tails more fragile papers such as school note book paper can work.
In this particular rifle I expect to need high rag content.
Picked up the #280642 here on the forum just for this experiment.
Going from 8mm down to 7mm is a lot!

[Dan Cash]

I have never been able to fold the tail successfully therefore, it is a twisted tail for me. I use Mead Academie tracing paper rolled on moist. It is .002" thick and uniform across the sheet. Stuff is tough. Other brands sold as standard weight, medium weight or 25 lb. work as well but the Mead is easy to get locally and pretty cheap.

[barrabruce]

If you keep the twisted tail knub in the middle I don't think it doesn't matter either way you go.

A twisted tail will hold just about any paper tight on a wrapped bullet if you don't size it.

Even if it don't stick at all to the bullet or shrink tight on it.

I seem to get tighter groups with folded tails with the papers I use.

I was getting hammered by powder kernals dinging up the base of my bullets at one stage for a while.

[s mac]

I also have trouble just folding the tail, for one thing it requires precision alignment. 303Guy's printed template seems to work well for him, I don't have that luxury.

[OverMax]

As far as which method is preferred? (flip a coin to determine)

[Cary Gunn]

Howdy gents,

I think y'all are wrapped pretty tight, and there's more than just a bit of truth in what all of ya are saying.

I sure wish I had 303 Guy's knack for precision patching; my ppb's usually look as disheveled as my sweetie after a romp in the sack. I've grown accustomed to that look, though; I just wish my ppb's accuracy was as pretty as my lady.

My patched slugs tend to group erratically. Sometimes they plunk into tight little clusters, but, more often than not, there's a Liberal or two in the string that strike wide of the mark.

I've also noticed that the bases of some recovered bullets are deeply indented, apparently by the patches' bunched up twisted-tail knots being rammed into the bullets' soft bare butt by the fierce pressure of powder combustion.

Those distorted bases can't be good for accuracy, and I've tried to mitigate the problem by gas-checking the slugs prior to patching, and/or topping a compressed powder charge with a bit of granulated plastic shotshell buffer to sort of cushion the bullet bases.

Both the gas-checking and the buffering seem to help some, but I'm still not where I want to be with consistently tight groups. What's more, my penuerous nature is offended by the added cost of gas checks, and my "lazy-streak" ain't thrilled with the additional burden of building compressed, buffered loads.

I'd sure like the simplicity of just patching a bare bullet, and seating it over any appropriate charge of powder, but my ppb loads always seem to require more work than that if I want good groups without flyers.

I've recently switched from "extruded stick" powders to ball powder in the hope that the smaller, finer powder granules wouldn't spank the bullet's bottom quite so hard. This, too, seems to help.

My next efforts will be aimed at trying to produce tightly-wrapped ppb's without twisting the tails into wad.

Maybe, if I can just slightly overlap the bullet base with the edge of the patch (as some of you have shown), and then squish the patch flat against the bullet base, I'll be able to avoid the base distortion caused by the twisted tail's "nubbin'" being rammed into the bullet's soft butt upon ignition.

My problem with this approach is that I can seldom wrap a tailless patch as tightly as I can the twisted-tail variety.

Maybe I just need more practice. Or, maybe some of you have some additional advice on the subject.

Happy trails and tight patches,

-- Cary Gunn --

[barrabruce]

Depends on the paper you are using.
Things like sewing pattern paper and some old air mail paper like to be tail twisted.
Note book and printer type paper tend to like base folding than trying to tightly twist a tail.

I am using a non lined note pad type paper at the moment.
It tastes ok if you use slobber on your patches.
Ink tends to leak through which seems to me to be a good thing.
And it cost $ 2.50 for 100 A4 note pad.
Adds 9 thou and hard when dry.

Been getting pretty consistent groups with it at reasonable velocities out of my 'ol girl.

I think that sometimes I should weight sort my boolits and cull them more vigorously.

But I'm on to my latest theory that I'm getting the odd banana shaped bullet from my home-madey hammer through size die. 310-301 is a bit of sizing and I doubt I could use a normal size die with out building a better stronger bench.

Some times I'll get 4-5 in 3/4" at a 100 yrds and have a wild flyer 1 or 2 inches away.

Might get a new gun with a more patch friendly chamber and throating....or a least a average sammi spec piece of muck would be a big improvement.

How I envy those who can willy nilly get a gun knocked up for them just how they like and have it all spoon fed to them.

[303Guy]

From a wrapping point of view, I like printer paper. I dry wrap which requires an effort of its own. It takes twist and slide with both hand to accomplish. I use a glue around the overhang or under the trailing edge corner if no overhang.

I use a tuft of Dacron over the powder and I switched to ball powder for the base peening reason.

Even the smooth roll over tail left an impression on the base.

[barrabruce]

Cary the best advice I can give you is:

Stop molesting your bullets.
The more you play with them to get them purrrfect the more the paper ruffs up.

Roll your patches by keeping the base edge of the paper in line slowly. Unroll a bit and roll the core to the left or right if you have to.

Ex peri ment a bit to find a way that works for you.

After they are all dry go over them and cull out the bad ones and re wrap.

I can only do so many bullets in a session before my concentration / calibrated eye ball and finger co-ordination dwindles.
Any more and I am really only waisting time and resources.

[Digital Dan]

Paper patch is an elegant art which rewards proper conduct with excellent results, almost without fail. It is a harsher mistress with high pressure loads and petulant if you wander off the righteous path. Fit is critical. Your choice of paper likewise. Never will a flat base bullet appreciate a twisted tail. Glue is sacrilege, you need the bullet to shed the patch as a puff of small flakes as it exits the muzzle. If you have room in the case neck use a card wad. It will protect the bullet base.

If your gun is not as accurate with paper patch as jacketed bullets you need to re-evaluate your methods

[303Guy]

Cary the best advice I can give you is:

Stop molesting your bullets.
The more you play with them to get them purrrfect the more the paper ruffs up.

Roll your patches by keeping the base edge of the paper in line slowly. Unroll a bit and roll the core to the left or right if you have to.

Ex peri ment a bit to find a way that works for you.

After they are all dry go over them and cull out the bad ones and re wrap.

I can only do so many bullets in a session before my concentration / calibrated eye ball and finger co-ordination dwindles.
Any more and I am really only waisting time and resources.

That's good advice. Exactly what I do although with a bit o practice (quite a bit) and with my guiding lines, I can get it right each time. But being out of practice now, I tend to need to make adjustments. It also depends on the boolit. A parallel smooth side is your friend, specially a large caliber. Paper choice makes a big difference too. Some papers roll over just fine, others fold well. None of mine twist well but then I gave up on twisting quite early.