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Thread: Hunting with a 44 Mag Lever

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hunting with a 44 Mag Lever

    Hi folks,

    As a newbie caster I'm looking for advice. Can anyone tell me if it is possible to make a cast bullet for hunting 44 mag that will have an ME of 1700ftlb. (Legal requirement)

    Many thanks,

    Scrumbag

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


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    One data point - a 225 grain bullet would require a muzzle velocity of 1845 fps to reach 1700 ft-lbs.

    For your own calculations, multiply bullet weight in grains times the square of muzzle velocity in fps, then divide by 450,435 to get muzzle energy in ft-lbs.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nueces View Post
    One data point - a 225 grain bullet would require a muzzle velocity of 1845 fps to reach 1700 ft-lbs.

    For your own calculations, multiply bullet weight in grains times the square of muzzle velocity in fps, then divide by 450,435 to get muzzle energy in ft-lbs.
    Hi Nueces, yep, even have a spreadsheet that does it. What I'm just wondering is, do I, as a caster, have a hope of making a bullet that will stand the pressures / velocity required

    Thanks,

    Scrummy

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Cowboy_Dan's Avatar
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    Out of a rifle you should be able to get to 1800 fps or better before you need a gascheck. A 255 gr boolit only needs about 1750 fps to make your energy requirement, so yes you should be able to do it.
    "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for everyone to believe anything on insufficient evidence."
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  5. #5
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    dang that's a lot of velocity.
    maybe something a bit heavier at a slightly slower velocity would meet the numbers?
    I know that increasing the velocity will make the "numbers" look good, but somehow doubt a 200 gr boolit at warp speed is going to be more effective than a 240 at 1400 fps. [about what I use for deer and elk in my 44 BTW]


    J.M.O.
    getting a cast boolit up to speed isn't the problem.
    it's that 1800 fps is pushing things to the full maximum in the 44 mag no matter what bullet/boolit you use.. [and a carbine might not make it]
    plus I have watched velocity and accuracy become much harder to attain at much over 1650 or so.

    I'd bet just about all of the factory rounds out there don't even come close.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy Fenring's Avatar
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    25gr of H110 with a 240gr bullet should do around 1800fps for 1700ft/lbs. Assuming it's safe in your rifle!

    My own loads with 275 and 315gr cast loads are around 1600 odd ft/lbs.

    To get a cast bullet at that speed, it will either need to be very hard and fit the bore perfectly, or use a softer bullet with a gas check and again, perfect fit and good lube.

    So many variables however, if such a thing will shoot in your rifle.

    Ideally, you will want a bullet soft enough and of such a design that it will get some sort of expansion so a softer bullet with a gas check and a wide flat nose. Assuming you aren't hunting big and heavy animals that need a yard of soft tissue penetration.

  7. #7
    In Remembrance - Super Moderator & Official Cast Boolits Sketch Artist

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    I have been check for hunting permission and other things but have never been asked if my ammo was strong enough are they going to test your reloads ? But I do not live in the UK. I hate to say it but it may be better to buy ammo and avoid the conflict and not have to prove my reloads are up to standards.
    Reloading to save money I am sure the saving is going to start soon

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    Slow and heavy wins the race.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy Fenring's Avatar
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    Not generally the energy race though.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master



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  11. #11
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    It alludes me why energy is used to qualify a gun. Figured by political hacks with no knowledge.
    I don't think there is an animal in the UK that a .44 will not kill fast. Still comes down to the boolit and it's construction.
    My 330 gr .44 boolit from my revolver has 1269 FP and 6' of animal is nothing with all torn up inside.
    Even my .475 with a 420 gr has just 1647 FP and nothing will be on it's feet hit with it. I swear it will kill four deer side by side.
    Gov't creep is the problem, hard enough for our friends over there to even own a gun.
    Some states here that only a shotgun could be used because of flat land and worries about slug travel are allowing some pistols and rifles now but they have useless requirements. Even wardens don't know but have to follow a book.
    It is not easy and might not be safe to get a .44 to that much energy let alone a boolit to take it. The case is really small.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Slow and heavy wins the race.
    This has been my experience too. Elmer was right.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  13. #13
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    Elmer went a little overboard.
    I like medium and medium.
    I dunno why, but mediocre loads with nominal or just over middle weight bullets does just fine for me.
    cast and jacketed it seems to work.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks for the info folks, looks like I'll need to do some more digging and investigating things like gas checks.

    The 1700 ftlbs is a pain as it means even the venerable 30-30 doesn't have enough energy to meeting the ME threshold in a lot of loadings. (And there is no way that that 30-30 isn't a good deer getter. White tail and Fallow deer are close in size: works for one, works for the other I feel).

    We have a silly law in Scotland on a mimimum MV of 2450fps so quite a few 303 loadings aren't legit in Scotland, 9.3x62 in all bar pretty much 232gr loadings isn't fast enough and the 45-70 is apparently no good for deer either....

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Just been looking at Buffalo Bore. Apparently their Deer grenade will do the following with a 240gr bullet:

    1935 fps -- Marlin 1894 20 inch
    1897 fps -- Marlin 1894 18 inch
    1871 fps -- Marlin 1894 16.5 inch
    1578 fps -- Ruger Super Blackhawk 5.5 inch
    1535 fps -- Ruger Redhawk 5.5 inch
    1466 fps -- S&W MT Gun 4 inch

    So, out of a lever action all will be legal. Any ideas of how to recreate the performance?

    Or would I be better going heavier and slightly slower?

    ATB,

    Scrummy


  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Scumbag,

    I am currently in the process of developing loads for my RUGER 77/44. I am using a Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet from an Accurate Mold, made by Tom in Utah.

    My best load at this point with the 275 - 280gr bullet is just over 1700fps and using the formula given in the second post I meet your needed requirements with 1764 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

    This bullet is made for the Marlin .444, so it should work just fine through your lever gun.

    Little question, this WILL be a worthy deer stomper at 100yds.

    Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenring View Post
    25gr of H110 with a 240gr bullet should do around 1800fps for 1700ft/lbs. Assuming it's safe in your rifle!

    My own loads with 275 and 315gr cast loads are around 1600 odd ft/lbs.

    To get a cast bullet at that speed, it will either need to be very hard and fit the bore perfectly, or use a softer bullet with a gas check and again, perfect fit and good lube.

    So many variables however, if such a thing will shoot in your rifle.

    Ideally, you will want a bullet soft enough and of such a design that it will get some sort of expansion so a softer bullet with a gas check and a wide flat nose. Assuming you aren't hunting big and heavy animals that need a yard of soft tissue penetration.
    Thanks Fenrig, may I ask what bullet you use?

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Using the Wide Flat Nose bullet profile in the .44 or .45 caliber WILL get er done without expansion.

    That bullet profile is highly effective. If the bullet expands a bit, so be it, but it is not needed.

    First in order of importance is proper bullet to bore fit. That will go a long ways in helping to develop a satisfactory cast bullet hunting load.

    I'd suggest avoiding .459 dia. unless slugging your bore has shown that to be a good starting place.

    I have sized my .44 bullets at .431 for years and that is what I'm using for my 77/44.

    Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Right, I shall need the rifle first

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    The rules are a pain but why not use a lighter boolit so you can speed things up .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check