Whitington Buffalo Strategy

[TXGunNut]

One more, this one shows the extreme angle of the rifle to reach the buffalo.

[TXGunNut]

The bare spot in the draw above the sillywet range is where the buff is. Last row of targets is 500 meters.

[Tom Myers]

That sure is a beautiful rifle.

It appears, from your image, that your 1123 yard sight setting for the Raton altitude and ambient conditions was 196 points.
If you remember the temperature at the range, that would also be good. Also wind velocity and direction. And ever better, would be if you also knew the barometric pressure at the range.
When you have a chance, adjust your sight to your 100 yard zero and send us a picture.

With the additional knowledge of your chronograph velocity, we can determine the muzzle velocity and the exact ballistic coefficient of the money bullet.

Then, before your next trip to a shoot, you can use your Precision Ballistics Software to enter those values and print out charts that will display sight settings, side-wind and head/tailwind adjustments at any range and ambient conditions that will always be within one or two point of dead on for your rifle.

It is hard to describe the feeling of elation that one feels when arriving at a shooting match with a new bullet and load, sitting down at the 800 yard line, glancing at your notes, adjusting the sights, placing the rifle on the sticks, taking careful aim, breaking the shot and then hearing your spotter exclaim, "8 ring - 3:00 O'clock - give me 2 minutes left windage".

Oh, and by the way, the angle of inclination for your rifle barrel to launch the bullet out to the 1123 yard mark (depending on the determination of your 100 yard zero) should be 184.74 minutes of angle (184.74 M.O.A. / 60 = 3.079 degrees) and the angle of impact should be 3.838 degrees X 60 = 230.28 M.O.A.

The angle of inclination of that particular target above the firing position would certainly increase the inclination of the rifle but, at that range, would be a negligible factor in the sight adjustment.

[TXGunNut]

Incredible wealth of information, Tom. Thanks. The sight setting shown is for the 457125, IIRC it's two marks higher than the Money boolit setting but I can't say for sure. I think the Money boolit was a bit unstable at that distance and velocity. I have not chrono'd the 452125 load I fired Tuesday, it's a variation of a load I measured @ 1322 IIRC. I'm sorry, not much useful info there.

[Chill Wills]

I am probably in over my head on this!

I have not shot the buffalo for 10-15 years. When I am down there ten in days I will have to shoot it after one of the matches just to see what is what. I will be shooting my silhouette rifle. 45-70, 73.5gr FF Swiss and Paul Jones Money Bullet. Should be close to what we are talking about too.
I would also like to try the 40-60 Maynard and see how that compares.
.

I was wondering about the "come-up's" discussed in this thread. Yesterday, sight in day before the scope match today, I shot my 40-60 Maynard at the 1123 yard Buffalo to see how my estimate would stack up against real life. The only difference is I shot the much smaller 40-60 Maynard instead of the 45-70 I use. It worked well! I may try the 45-70 later this week when I know how much extra 45-70 silhouette ammo I have.

Moot really.

I would guess it would be close to the same.

40-60 Maynard come-ups:
200-yard sight setting - 52
*300y-63
*500y-91
*600y-105
1123 -yard -188
====================
200 to 1123 137

The question was how much to come up from 100y to the buffalo.
In my case, 137 minutes from 200y to 1123y

I would estimate 10 minutes from 100y to 200y

100 to 1123y 147

That would make 147minutes up from 100ys to the buffalo - this, from the 40cal. Good eh?
Here is a picture of the 40 made from a blown out cut down 30-40 Krag case. Maybe the smartest BPCR cartridge going.

Well - I can't make the 40-60 cartridge picture stick.

[Chill Wills]

The only picture I could attach of the 40-60 Maynard ( right ) was included with a comparison with the 38-50 Remington-Hepburn on the left.

Interestingly enough, this 40 cal is fully the equal of the 45-70 shooting as flat or flatter to the buffalo. It also placed well in the NRA National Silhouette championship match this week.

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like it's a fair bit flatter than the 45-70 or 45-90. Congrats on a good showing in Raton! Looks to me like the .40 is the hot caliber for this game. I know it would be more comfortable to shoot and easier on the lead and powder supply.

[Chill Wills]

TXGunNut,
I think you worked out what the number of Minutes you needed to come up from your 100Y setting to the 1123y Buffalo. If so, I missed it - which is often the case.
Can you report that number again? I think you used the two different bullets too.

[Gunlaker]

That's pretty good for a .40. I've never tried my .40-65 past 600, but the come-ups are nearly identical. Actually mine has been shooting a little flatter this year than last, I think because I have better fouling management. I'm guessing you are shooting a 400gr-ish money bullet at around 1300 fps?

My .40-65 shoots flatter than my .45-70 to 600, even though the .45 bullet has a better BC, but I think it's just because the .40 shoots them 150 fps faster. I'm pretty sure my .45-90 shoots flatter than the .40, but it's shooting a little slipperier bullet at a higher velocity of course.

Chris.

[TXGunNut]

TXGunNut,
I think you worked out what the number of Minutes you needed to come up from your 100Y setting to the 1123y Buffalo. If so, I missed it - which is often the case.
Can you report that number again? I think you used the two different bullets too.

Best guess is 190 minutes for the Lyman and a bit less for the Money. I didn't chrono my second load and I put a very slight crimp on the first load so that data is questionable as well. Second load likely started out at least 100fps faster than the first but BC and mass were significantly different. Considering I changed horses midstream and SWAG'd a bit here and there I didn't really gather much useful data. I'm sorry, as I mentioned before I simply ran out of time on this project and had to do it quick and dirty. Still haven't sat down with the sight and taken a refresher on Vernier principles.
I may be able to figure it out If I can recreate the first and take the remnants of the second load to the range with my LabRadar.

[Chill Wills]

Best guess is 190 minutes for the Lyman and a bit less for the Money. Still haven't sat down with the sight and taken a refresher on Vernier principles.
I may be able to figure it out If I can recreate the first and take the remnants of the second load to the range with my LabRadar.

OK. Thanks! If that Lyman bullet is the Gov. Round nose - 457 125 I would guess that sounds about right. It is a good bullet for some things and everyone should have one. When I did two chronograph Bc testing at Raton one year that was one of the bullets tested. From the top of my head that bullet when fired at about 1175 fps muzzle velocity gave a Bc of just under 0.4 - really something in the 0.39? Bc range.

[Chill Wills]

That's pretty good for a .40. I've never tried my .40-65 past 600, but the come-ups are nearly identical. Actually mine has been shooting a little flatter this year than last, I think because I have better fouling management. I'm guessing you are shooting a 400gr-ish money bullet at around 1300 fps? -Chris.

Chris - I am sorry but for some reason I just now see your post so had not replied to your question.

That 40 can shoot as flat as anything in its velocity class (maybe close anyway - we get liberal with superlatives) and I launched those mini-groove bullets as it was called back then, at 1265fps average velocity. I have never shot the 40-60Maynard in a long-range match but our friend DanT used to try to get me to do it. Although, he thought the results should be better for 1000ys by boosting velocity closer to 1300fps by using a load of Swiss 3F powder. It was his belief that no one would ever know what I was shooting, in other words, not shooting a 45-90 and the little round would be very competitive due mainly to the bullet. At present I shoot this as my Mid-range and Silhouette load.

If I had a brain in my head, I would sell all my other rifles and just stick with rifles chambered for the little 40.
But - unlike marriage - I like some variety in rifles and cartridges to keep the world interesting.

[Lead pot]

Beware of the man with just one rifle

[Gunlaker]

I know what you mean about keeping it interesting with cartridge and rifle variety. I'm pretty guilty of that. At our local gong shoot, a number of shooters have had better success than I'd have thought at 880 yards using 1:14 or 1:16 twist .40's. On a calm day, a friend managed several consecutive hits on a tiny 2 MOA sized gong at 1000 using a standard Shiloh shooting the Snover bullet. I haven't been brave enough to try .

I might try that sort of thing one day, but first I have to really get comfortable with Creedmoor shooting using a vanilla .45-90. I have quite a ways to go yet.

BTW, my .40-65 shoots the Kidwell 400gr Money bullet at 1300 fps. This is with 60.6gr of OE 1.5 which seems to have decent SD's.

See you in Byers.

Chris.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

you guys reflect my own experience.
having a 45/2.4 and a 40/72, I find myself reaching for the 40 more and more.
it is just easier to shoot, and uses less powder and lead.
with its 13 twist it can shoot bullets as long as 1.55" which are capable at long range.
if these bullets are patched to bore the case will hold 84 gns of swiss 1.0 or 1.5, delivering bullets at over 1300 fps which have a b.c. over 0.5 calculated from trajectories.
you can also seat greasers deep enough in the case to use 65 gns of powder for mid range and sil.
a wonderful compromise.
I have wondered about necking up 9.3x74 brass to make 40/85 ballard cases which might be about 2.9" long as opposed to just under 2.6" for the 40/72.
this would trade off a bit of mid range for a bit more long range.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

Bruce I wonder how many have taken a run at long range with .40's or less? Obviously Dan did, and I know that Steve Rhoades shoots a .40-82, but they still seem pretty uncommon so far. I'm sure that at least some of that is because many shooters try to emulate the shooters at the top of the game rather than take risks and try to innovate.

I know that on paper, rounds like Dan's fast twist .38's should do very well, but then I think of what I hear of fast twist .223's in the FT/R game vs. the standard heavy .308's.

Chris.

[BrentD]

Although I'm building a 40, many .40 shooters and spotters will tell you the calling wind, take your .45 cal estimate and double it.

Last year, I spotted for an Aussie with his .40 and it (the expression) made a believer out of me. I would never take a .40 to a long-range match, and probably not even to a windy silhouette match.

There is only one reason why a.40 might be preferred over a .45 and that is not relevant to LR shooting.

[Chill Wills]

I do not have any experience with a 40 past 600y

[Chill Wills]

It would take a non-match day, pair firing with two shooters to get a true impression - 40 v 45 at LR.

I believe Bc should tell the whole story. Two 0.500 Bc bullets, one 40 Cal and the other 45 Cal should perform the same - should it not?

I am open to logic. Maybe I can pair fire with Jack Odor at the Oct. Byers match and test this out.

To do it you only need have your rifles front sights in agreement. I did this in 2004 with Dave Gullo at the World Creedmoor Championships in the team shooting match.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

any bullets with the same b.c. at the same velocity will have the same wind deflection.
the trick with a 40 is to get the same b.c. as with a 45.
this will require a faster twist than most 40s have, particularly ones from the day.
I have a 40/72 and a 45/2.4", and deflection is so similar that I use the same wind chart.
if the 40 has one disadvantage over the 45, is that 12' and 13' twists required impart 1 moa more spindrift at 1000 yards, 3 moa as opposed to 2 moa.
if your deadwind zero is set for 1000 yds, this makes no difference, but this is hard to do reliably, so it is better to set it for 100, or at 100 zeroed a bit to the left.
in the old days they used a windage foresight, and set it 2 points left for long range.
while a 38 would be even easier to shoot than a 40, the 40 is a compromise between a 45 and a 38..
there are now more people picking up the 40 cal for long range shooting, so it will be interesting to have this discussion in another 10 years.
keep safe,
bruce.