Fail: patching 452 255 SWC to 458 for 45-70

[brianhearn]

Advice please-- Used BACO 45 cal template and 9# onionskin to wet pp 452 diam 255 grain SWC pistol boolits to 458 for loading in 45-70 over 19 grains 4759. 2 turns with edge just over the shoulder of the boolit. let dry overnite then finger applied jojoba oil to patch for lube. Fired 30 rounds from bench at full sized sillywet ram at 200 yds the misses went in every direction; only one hit the ram. Expected some lumps for my first pp attempt but 29/30 failures means something I did/not do was REALLY wrong.

[Old Coot]

brianhearn, Did you slug your barrel and either make a pound cast or a cast of the rifles throat?
Rifle barrels vary considerably in diameter. Your finished bullet should be one to two thousands over the size of the throat. The easiest way is try a finished bullet in a fired case. If it slips right in easily or even has some slop in the fit the bullet is way too small. I ran into this with a 458 winchester. The barrel slugged at .460 instead of .457. The throat is much much larger. It was chambered that way to insure positive ejection and feed in the hottest heart of deepest Africa. With all that I could get 3/4 inch three shot groups with full house jacketed 500 gr. loads.

Make a chamber cast or a pound cast and find out just what the size of the chamber throat is. Your finished patched and lubed bullet should just push seat into a fired case with your fingers. Then, that is the size your finished bullet needs to be. The lead core should be just large enough to lightly engrave the rifling. If it is not those pills are going to rattle down the barrel, shed their patches when and if they please and wind up flying all over the place. I know. I have dood it. Read and follow the stickies on loading paper patched rounds. They have the best advice you can get.
Brodie

[scattershot]

Could be something in the oil caused the patches to release unevenly. I don't lube paper patches. I'm far from an expert, but try a few unlubed and see what happens.

[FredBuddy]

Brian: My experience is with 200 gr SWC's patched to .460. For me, anything beyond 75 yds is a waste of effort as the groups open up considerably. However, any groundhog within 50 yds is DRT. The big plus for me in my old age is the 'gentle' recoil.

[brianhearn]

Thanks to all. Will check dimensions and retry. Fredbuddy--my whole purpose was, as you surmise, to get a lower recoiing round than one gets using the 300++ grain cast 45-70 bullets. Still that rifle does quite well with a 300 grainer but my old messed up shoulder gets sore fast. I had to switch to lefty after retinal surgery

[Nobade]

Don't use the oil. Lube with wax or something that doesn't wet the paper. Do use pillow fluff filler with powder like that. The load should work OK, but a ball of pillow stuffing should help it. What rifle are you shooting? Does it have any freebore or does the rifling come right to the end of the chamber? Patches need to be lightly jammed into the rifling. If there's much freebore you might not end up with any bullet in the case. Keep at it, this does work if it's done right. As you have seen, failures are spectacular if you don't do it just so.

-Nobade

[brianhearn]

Nobade modern Win/Miroku 458 groove no leade or freebore

[Firehand]

I tried using both a 255-grain semi-wadcutter, and- when I ran across some I'd forgotten I had- some 230-grain roundnose for general plinking use. Three-wraps of onionskin, wipe with bullet lube, size to .459 over ten grains of Green Dot. They'll group quite nicely at 50 yards, and when I do my part I get ~3" groups at 100, which is all I was looking for with these. Haven't had the chance to fire them at longer distances.

[Good Cheer]

The RCBS works well in my .458 bore diameter muzzle loader. But I'm using soft lead with black.

[Buckshot]

..............Not long after I got a MkIV MArtini-Henry 577-450 I started paper patching. I had such good results I became rather manic and was patching most any slug for which I had cases. I then patched up some 255gr lead slugs (it was tedious work for my fat fingers). I only fired one of them to my recollection at this removed date. It was in a 45-70 case, probably loaded with some small dab of Red Dot or Unique.

In any event a friend of mine happened to stop by just as I'd seated the slug. I got my Trapdoor carbine and we adjourned into the field at the end of the house. There was an old dead Mulberry tree stump I could see through the weeds, so I aimed at it. The report wasn't much but that slug hit was a resounding 'Thwok'. That stump was as hard as chilled cast iron, and I must have hit it on the left side, as the boolit took off across the field at what must have been less then ankle height. There was a line of dust, and a "Ting-Ting" as it hit the hog wire fence that was on both sides of the driveway Off into the next field which had been disced, sending up a spout of dirt every few yards. I suspect it must have gone about 100 yards including it's carom off the edge of the stump.

Just for fun I went and pulled my 45-70 records notebook and found 5 pages with load data for cast paper patched pistol bullets! Two pages were with the Lee 452-228 RN slug. Fired in my MAS36 conversion to 45-70, 24" bbl:

Unique, fired 4-1-96
10.0 = 1170
11.0 = 1265
12.0 = 1348
13.0 = 1414

Best groups (50 yards) (Factory peep rear, blade front)

10.0 = 2.25" circle
11.0 = 1.25" tall x 2.25" wide.

Lyman 452490 255gr SWC Fired 2-16-97
Unique 11.0 gr, card wad seated to 2.595" except as noted:

1217 fps 4 into .750" 5= 1.25"
1189 fps 5 = 1.75"
1200 fps seated 2.695" = 1" tall x 2.5" wide

The other load sheets were for some Berry's cast 230gr RN = no bueno

Loads over 12.0grs of Unique began to spread out. Bullets weren't scaled and the patches had been lubed the day before with Lee Liquid Alox.

...............Buckshot

[Lead pot]

You have two things working against you for shooting that bullet at 200 yards. One is a bullet to short for the twist, second that twisted tail.

For 50 or 100 yards you can just about wrap a peanut and make a mark on what your aiming at. 200 is a different story with what your using.

[Toymaker]

Unfortunately bullet weight is related to bullet length and, as Lead Pot said, yours is too short. You likely need a minimum of 405 grains to get the necessary length.
Starting with a clipped tail isn't bad, but your groups may well improve if you get rid of it.

I use IMR SR 4759 with either a 405 or 500 grain bullet. Either use 23.5 grains of powder. While the recoil with the 405 grainer is less I've found neither to be extreme. But maybe that's just me. I also get excellent groups using 27 grains with either bullet. After a match I know I've been shooting, but it isn't the southern end of a north bound mule.

Accurate 5744 is a good replacement for 4759 in my rifle.

[Alan in GA]

Don't forget about these easy to pp ready made 0.452" bullets! (first three from left in picture).
Expanded bullet in picture went through a nice buck and was recovered in front leg after full body penetration [entered rear of rib cage in quartering away then out front shoulder/chest and into front leg where the bone stopped it. Out of a 45/70 Handi Rifle].

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...il.aspx?id=232

[scattershot]

Looks good. What was your load, and have you accuracy tested it?

[castalott]

+1 on the patching 45 auto cast with teflon tape. My old buddy Larry did this with very mild loads and it shot great in a 45/70. I don't know but suspect your load is too hot...

Dale

[OverMax]

Just saying:
I don't own a 45-70. But.~~I would think the use of Black Powder would be about the best powder one could use in a large straight wall case tipped with a heavy paper patched boolit. No doubt the cartridge was originally designed to fire it and B/P offers a full case measure which provides a decent solid bench for a P/P boolits Base to sit upon. Don't see many smokeless powders measure'ing>a full case. Those using smokeless powders typically rely on Neck tension holding their boolit in place. Then wonder why their P/P boolits grouping spread covers a 4x8 sheet of plywood top to bottom at 50 yards.~~(well almost) lol

I tried different boolit lubes too on my 30-30 P/P. I found it wasn't a requirement. I got fine accuracy from non lubed P/P boolits. When my barrels heat up due to my repeated one after the other firing of non lubed boolits. I just stop shooting and let the open air cool down my rifles barrel. Maybe pour a cup of coffee and wait or take a break from shooting and go be sociable with other shooters till my barrel cool's.

[Artful]

Memories - I did Paper Patch back in the 80's with green bar computer paper on RCBS 255 SWC for H&R 45-70 - worked good for rabbit & squirrel load - I think it was Unique I was using back then. As I remember I used Elmers on wrap and hand lubed with NRA Alox rubbed on the outside.