Choosing best all around .45 Colt bullet?

[Brandi]

To preface this, my sis and I just started reloading and are using the newest version of Lee's loading manual. We do plan to cast but that will have to wait until we buy all the reloading stuff we need. Currently we are set up for .45 Colt and 9mm but it's .45 Colt that I need advice on at the moment. We have two Ruger New Vaquero Bisley's, one large frame Vaquero in .45 Colt and one large frame Blackhawk .45 Colt/.45acp. We also have two Henry Big Boy rifles in .45 Colt.

I'm trying to decide on a bullet that will be good for everything. I'm pretty much set on hard cast and a Keith style or similar bullet design. At the moment we have been loading 255 grain Hornady RNFP hard cast .454" over 6.4 grains of Universal (the manual didn't have info for a 255 grain so we used the minimum limit load for a 250 grain bullet). The accuracy wasn't very good so I'm thinking we should switch to .452" diameter bullets regardless of style.

Universal is the only powder we have at the moment and money is too tight to buy different powders with all the dies and stuff we still need to buy. Since we can't cast yet, is there a factory hard cast bullet out there that would be a good choice for all our .45 Colt guns, sticking with Universal powder for now? I'm thinking a 255 grain Keith style hard cast but I don't know if that's the best choice and, if it is, which brand to choose.

[Outpost75]

Before settling on a Keith type SWC for dual use in rifle and revolver, confirm that your rifle will actually feed the Keith. Many levers will not.

If you plan to shoot common ammunition in both rifle and revolver, there is no need for "hard" cast in the .45 Colt with standard loads. I use 1:40 tin-lead alloy in my .45 Colts and in .44-40 for full charge loads up to 1000 fps in revolvers and 1300 fps in rifles. I use smokeless loads which approximate black powder velocity and bullets cast from Accurate molds, of traditional shape similar to the original bullets.

Attachment 171219

The 45-259EB is adapted from John Kort's proven design for the .44-40, simply increasing diameters and adding a bevel base to get the weight where I wanted it. It is my favorite for the .45 Colt, with 7 grains of Bullseye, which gives 880 fps in my Colt New Service M1909 with 5-1/2" barrel and 1050 f.p.s. from a 20" carbine.

With Hodgdon Universal a charge of 8-9 grains is fairly standard in the .45 Colt with a 250-260-grain bullet and will provide better ballistic uniformity than the light charge you are trying, given the amount of free airspace in the .45 Colt case, which often causes problems for people attempting light "cowboy" loads, unless they use faster-burning, more easily ignited powders like Bullseye, Red Dot or Trail Boss.

[hp246]

I'm using a Lee 230 grn .452 Truncated cone in all my 45 Colt and 45 ACP. I have two Uberti 1973 SAA, two Ruger New Vaqueros, a Remington 1911, a Rock Island 1911, Uberti 73 Rifle and Uberti 66 carbine. The bullet works great in all of them for CAS and Wild Bunch. I don't know what type of accuracy you are looking for, but no problems with it out to 40 or 50 yards. I am shooting pretty light loads. 5.5 grns of Trailboss in the 45 Colt loads. The TC bullet is great in the rifle and carbine, and the TC or flat point bullets are required in out local matches.

[DougGuy]

Hey Brandi and welcome to the castboolits forum! Did you come over from the Ruger forum?

There is probably more load data for the .45 Colt than any other handgun cartridge ever made I think.

You can sorta go by boolit weight what powder to choose, the lighter the boolits, the faster the powder so 225gr to 255gr can use Bullseye, Unique, 231, 700x, HS6, Herco, Tite Group, the list goes on and on.

As boolit weight creeps up, burn rate needs to slow down. For 75% ~ 90% of max loads in the Ruger Only (30,000 psi) range, 2400, LilGun, 4227, and other powders can be used but Unique and fast powder won't work too good past about 270gr of boolit weight.

For magnum level loads and heavy boolits, 300gr ~ 340gr look to H110, W296, 2400, Lilgun, AA#9. Be warned not to download H110/W296 below published starting weights, See the comment above for less than magnum level loads.

Boolits.. Personally I got away from the Keith style and now exclusively shoot the RF style with a wide flat meplat and a smooth ogive on the sides because when this boolit hits the forcing cone it is a smoother transition being the sides of the boolit and the forcing cone are nearly parallel. The Keith boolit can hit the forcing cone and half the front of the boolit can be wiped off by the time the boolit exits the cylinder and it fully in the barrel.

If you plan to hunt, softer alloys and soft lube REALLY work good in Ruger rifling in the big bores. A mix of 50/50+2% (50% clip on wheel weights a.k.a. COWW or WW + 50% pure soft lead, + 2% tin) works great for hunting, good expansion, full penetration in even the largest game in North America, and the boolits stay together quite well. No hollowpoints needed, nor are they recommended.

There are more than just this way to skin the proverbial cat, this is just how *I* like to do it.

Also, I don't know that there is one single "best all around" boolit for this caliber. If I had to pick one that would work in most any firearm and take most any game, it would have to be the trusted old Lyman 454190, a round nosed design with a small meplat to work good in leverguns. Oddly enough, this boolit would be the closest that we have to a modern day equivalent to the original 1873 .45 Colt bullet. Looks like Sam Colt had it right from the git go!

[Outpost75]

Be aware that #454190 does not have a crimp groove, and you must roll crimp over the ogive of the bullet, which may not be adequate to maintain bullet position against compression of the tubular magazine spring, when loading smokeless powder, in which there is no base support for the bullet, as occurs with a compressed charge of black powder.

The Accurate 45-259EB shown in my post above, has a crimp groove, and adequate lube capacity to prevent foulout with Goex powder. I have also found it works very well with full charge loads in smokeless and its larger meplat performs well on game.

Accurate has a several other traditional designs for the .45 Colt which work well in rifles or revolvers, including both plainbase and bevel-based adaptations of #454190 having a crimp groove, which are shown below.

Attachment 171220Attachment 171223Attachment 171221Attachment 171222

[C. Latch]

If I had to stick to one .45 Colt bullet, excluding game larger or toothier than elk, I'd choose the Mihec 454640 design.

No idea if any commercial caster makes it, but I bet someone makes something very similar.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...low-point-mold

[DougGuy]

Be aware that #454190 does not have a crimp groove.

The Accurate 45-259EB has a crimp groove, and adequate lube capacity to prevent foulout with Goex powder. I have also found this design work well with smokeless and its larger meplat performs well on game. Accurate has a multitude of good designs for the .45 Colt including adaptations of #454190 having a crimp groove added.

You are correct, forgot all about that BECAUSE the 454190 that I have here, has a crimp groove! got them from a member that obviously has an "improved" mold.

[lightload]

The Hornady bullet cited is swaged and not cast. It's very soft. Guys, will casting machine's 225 grain flat point work ok in the .45 Colt? I think I see a crimp groove and the shape should feed in the Henry. It's on this forum in the Swapping and Selling section. Price is right too. If so, I say get it in .453 diameter.

[dubber123]

With adequate case neck tension, I have not had any issues with crimping the 452190 at the top edge of the lube groove, they don't pull when fired with above standard loads in a revolver, and would prevent set back into the case when used in lever guns. I don't like the looks of the loaded ammo when crimped over the ogive, and have always seated to the lube groove.

[35 Whelen]

That's a pretty easy question: Either the Lyman 454424 or RCBS 45-255-SWC. I have both and for whatever reason bullets from the the RCBS shoot much for accurately than those from the Lyman mould.

35W

[Bigslug]

The original Keith was the 255 grain Ideal/Lyman 452424. There's good copies of it out there by NOE and others that are probably closer to the original spec than Lyman's current offering of the same part number

The 270 grain RCBS S.A.A. bullet is, as best I can tell, a stretched version of the 452424, and it is without doubt, a wicked number. The RCBS molds are sweet, but only 2-cavity. Again, very good clones out there from several sources.

The 452423 was Elmer Keith's .45 Auto Rim bullet. 238 grains according to the blueprints, but about 8-10 grains heavier in the versions I have tried. It is not a long range bullet, but it is a knock-the-stuffing-out-of-things bullet with it's .34 caliber meplat. I'm waiting on a new Redhawk and will probably use this as a higher velocity, lower recoil option to the RCBS bullet as a means of black bear/mountain lion defense when deer hunting. With the higher speeds a .45C revolver can generate, it should be potent medicine for things inside the "just shoot it with the .30-06" envelope.

But really, round nose flat points are a better way to go - better for mechanical-feeding guns like your lever; more weight in the nose leaving room for powder in your case; and (some would argue) more accurate due to the gentle taper to full diameter aligning more precisely in the rifling. The SWC's make a cleaner hole in paper if you're after Bullseye match points, but that seems to be their only real edge. I went through my Keith phase out of respect for his efforts, and continue to use them because, hey, I've got the molds, but I tend to think the state of the art has passed him by.

[Lloyd Smale]

heavier has allways done better in all my 45s. I stuggled for years with 250-255s. Yes I found loads that shot well but spent a lot of money on powder and primers doing it. If I was new to this and wanted a good 45 bullet id look at something like a 280lfn from lbt. My preference would be for a gas checked version but many here don't like paying for the bit better accuracy they bring. A bullet like that will outshoot a 255 at a 1000 fps and outshoot it at 1300. Penetrate better and fly better at long range if you like busting rocks way out there like I do.

[35 Whelen]

Although it's my favorite. 45 bullet, I deliberately left the RCBS 45-270SAA mould off the list because at an actual cast weight of 280-285 grs., it's too heavy for an all-around bullet in my opinion.
Last deer season I actually used this bullet in a hollowpoint version on a javelina and a whitetail buck. The platform was a 5.5" Uberti Bisley, velocity at or a little above 1000 fps, range just shy of 50 yds. in both cases and both animals promptly expired.
Alot of people like the WFN's but I just can't see any real advantage. IMHO they break all the rules for long range accuracy with all the weight out in front of the bearing surface and in order to equal the penetration of a Keith SWC the weight of the bullet must be increased to overcome the larger frontal area of the bullet. In other words, there are no free lunches.

35W

[Char-Gar]

Choose your bullet to function in the rifle, and then use the same one in the revolver. The rifle will be your problem child.

[Texantothecore]

The .45 seems to work well as a softer bullet. When you start to cast use pure lead or maybe 2% tin.

You might also try .454 caliper round ball. It works. Also a lot cheaper than bullets and normally an off the shelf item at Bass Pro and other big gunstores.

[Texantothecore]

Round nose flat point seems to be the choice for many shooters. One way to find out what works is to look at the large mold making operations and see which bullets have six cavity molds in their nomal product line. Those bullets perform well and the molds sell consistantly.

[Outpost75]

Choose your bullet to function in the rifle, and then use the same one in the revolver. The rifle will be your problem child.

^^^^^^^^^^^THERE is a man who knows of what he speaks!

[KYCaster]

Lots of conflicting information in the answers here. It can be confusing, but here are a few basics you need to be aware of.

To preface this, my sis and I just started reloading and are using the newest version of Lee's loading manual. We do plan to cast but that will have to wait until we buy all the reloading stuff we need. Currently we are set up for .45 Colt and 9mm but it's .45 Colt that I need advice on at the moment. We have two Ruger New Vaquero Bisley's, one large frame Vaquero in .45 Colt and one large frame Blackhawk .45 Colt/.45acp. We also have two Henry Big Boy rifles in .45 Colt.

I'm trying to decide on a bullet that will be good for everything. I'm pretty much set on hard cast and a Keith style or similar bullet design. At the moment we have been loading 255 grain Hornady RNFP hard cast .454" over 6.4 grains of Universal (the manual didn't have info for a 255 grain so we used the minimum limit load for a 250 grain bullet). The accuracy wasn't very good so I'm thinking we should switch to .452" diameter bullets regardless of style.

1) Lee does not develop any reloading data. They copy data from other sources and publish it in their own manual without citing the source. That shouldn't be a problem, but there have been some notable mistakes in transcribing data. I'd rather get data from the bullet and powder manufacturers who actually do the load development.

2) Hornady does not offer cast bullets. All their lead bullets are swaged from very soft lead.

3) .454 diameter bullets are intended for antique guns...1st and 2nd generation Colt's and older clones. I think Uberti was the last to change sometime in the mid '80s. All Rugers and modern Henry rifles have .451 barrels so .452 dia. is the place to start.

4) Some lever action rifles don't play well with SWC bullets. You're more likely to have instant success with the RNFP profile. Either one will work in the revolvers. Any commercial caster who uses Magma casting machines (most of them) should offer a .452-255-RNFP.....pick one. Hi-tek brand bullet coating has become very popular with the commercial casters and it's a bit more forgiving than wax lubes...it should make your load work up a bit easier.

Universal is the only powder we have at the moment and money is too tight to buy different powders with all the dies and stuff we still need to buy. Since we can't cast yet, is there a factory hard cast bullet out there that would be a good choice for all our .45 Colt guns, sticking with Universal powder for now? I'm thinking a 255 grain Keith style hard cast but I don't know if that's the best choice and, if it is, which brand to choose.

Universal is an excellent choice for 45 Colt. Go to the Hodgdon web site, get into the load data center. Their new format sux, but the info is there if you take the time to find it. Choose "pistol"....cartridge = "45 Colt"... bullet weight = "select all".... manufacturer = "Hodgdon".... powder = "Universal".

Good luck. I hope it works well for you.


Jerry

[ReloaderFred]

For shooting paper and steel, I've settled on the 200 gr. RNFP bullet for almost all my .45 Colt firearms, both handguns and rifles. It's an accurate bullet and I get more bullets per pound of alloy. I also use it for a lot of my .45 acp loading, since it functions fine in the 1911's, Witnesses and XD's, as well as the Ruger convertibles.

I size mine .452" for everything and I've yet to find any leading.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Brandi]

Wow, thanks for all the great information, I appreciate the help very much. As for the bullet we are currently using I incorrectly called it a "hard cast" bullet, I'm still learning the different lingo for everything. It is a swaged bullet and I don't know the actual hardness but feels pretty darn hard to me. It takes quite a bit of pressure to even make a mark on it and far harder than any of the other lead bullets I have on hand. We have a friend locally that is retired and has reloaded for several decades that has been helping us and he said they were definitely hard. I dunno, maybe I'm just not experienced enough yet to know how hard a bullet has to be to be considered "hard".

I wouldn't be using this for hunting deer so I don't need a soft bullet or hollow points. If any of these guns are used for shooting at animals it'll be for hog hunting, hog defense, black bear defense...that kind of stuff, which is why I prefer a hard bullet. Mostly they will be used for inanimate targets but I want something that's good for both. I may load XTP's at some point but not in my .45 Colts, with those I want to stay strictly with solid lead (plus any additives of course). I'm in the heavier is better camp when it comes to .45 Colt so I'm ok with something heavier than the 255 grain but not lighter. My sis and I prefer a load with some "power". We both own and shoot magnum revolvers so we plan to settle on a load that is warm enough to be fun but not so hot to be painful. I'm not interested in loading any "Ruger Only" stuff for the large frame guns until we are more experienced reloaders. I think "warm" loads safe for the New Vaquero's is where we will settle until then.

How do the round nose flat point bullets compare with semi wadcutters when used on game animals? Especially "tough" animals that require better penetration than expansion? Also, is there a major point of impact difference between the two bullet designs all other things being equal? Do longer bullets fly better? It would seem but then does it even matter that much within 100 yards? I can't see well enough to shoot open sights past that distance and I'm not putting optics on my lever guns so if something needs shootin' past the 100 yard mark I'll break out a scoped rifle.

Oh, on top of the less then stellar accuracy we got out of our first batch there was a little bit of tan colored powder flakes left in the cases after we unloaded the revolvers. What is the reason for the powder being tan instead of black? What causes that powder from not burning? Is that normal or something that needs to be remedied?

DougGuy, yes, I was on the Ruger forum. I've been on hiatus for several months from the internet for personal reasons so I've not logged in there for quite awhile. I'll be back now that I'm more active.