British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450)

[John in PA]

Now, post title should be:

"What the heck is the cartridge that this Civilian Sale Unmarked Military Steyr Martini that otherwise looks like a Romanian Model is chambered for??"

Original post:Anyone playing with the British No. 2 Musket cartridge? (Also known as the Westley Richards No. 2 Musket or the .500-450) May be identical or close to the Romanian 11.43X59R depending on what source I look at.

Supposedly can be formed from .50-90 Sharps, and handles most .45-70 bullets well.

I'm poised to tinker with this one, the black powder version, not the Nitro Express.
************************************************** *********************
OOPS!! Can't identify the chambering on this one. See additional info below!

[Eric Johanen]

I would check the bore diameter. I seem to remember that the bullet size for this cartridge is .451 A friend had a double in the cartridge and it shot very well with black powder and a proper sized bullet. He used Bertram brass. Good luck and have fun with it!

[elk hunter]

My book shows that round being made from the 475 #2 case trimmed to 2.4" long and the rim thinned to .063". Apparently it used a 480 grain bullet. With that big case a large dose of Curtis & Harvey #6 powder should move that bullet close to 1700 FPS. Quite a thumper.

My 500-450 is the 3 1/4" case and shoots 350 grain bullets at 1800 fPS plus.

[Huvius]

I have shot the No.2 quite a bit in three rifles - Westley 1871, Westley 1881, and a Hughes Farquharson.
The Hughes shoots .458" cast and plated boolits very well. I used the 350gr Berry's quite as bit in that one.
The 1881 is a match rifle and has a tighter chamber and Metford rifling. I have only used paper patched .450" in that rifle but haven't devoted enough time to get it really shooting yet. The 1871 has a bigger neck but shoots .458s well too.
It is a very forgiving cartridge and easy to load.
It can be made out of many different cases. Even thin rimmed cases can be used since you can headspace off the shoulder and of course Bertram makes brass for it. 500/450 No.1 can be trimmed back too.
What is the rifle?

[John in PA]

The rifle is a Steyr-made model 1879 Romanian Martini-Henry. Haven't received it yet. Supposed to be in mint condition, A chamber cast is first on the order of business.

[dromia]

I shoot it in a Westley Richards Deeley Edge falling block express rifle.

I think it is the best black powder cartridge ever made, seem very efficient with little fouling to manage with Swiss No4. I have a good supply of Kynoch brass for it. The barrel is 0.451" on the groove, I shoot GG bullets sized to 0.452" and paper patched, patched to groove diameter.

[John in PA]

The plot thickens...

First, it's a match for a Romanian model Steyr, except no Romanian or any other military markings, no serial number, just the large round scroll on the left receiver "Steyr 1882" Single Austrian "two-headed" proof mark underside of breech end of barrel. Couple single digit assembly/inspector numbers/letters, and a slightly more conspicuous " -05 " also under the fore end on the barrel.

In about perfect (possibly unfired?) condition, so definitely not tinkered with in any way..

Chamber cast completed, and, apparently, it isn't a #2 Musket. In fact, I can't figure out what it is!!



Left are fired (in a 71/84 Mauser) and unfired .43 Mauser. Right .43 Spanish.

Chamber cast is from the 1882 Steyr.

Chamber dimensions as follows:
Rim .663"
Head .532"
Shoulder diameter .518"
Length from breechface to start of shoulder approx 1.6" Neck diameter .473
Major and minor diameters of Henry rifling just ahead of chamber (odd number of grooves).468"/.459"
(This does not reflect true bore size as a .451 swaged round ball will not quite fit the bore, but a .446 bullet will essentially drop through, so minor bore diameter is probably right around .450")

Most dimensions would work well for the #2 Musket except the head diameter, which is too small by .050" !!

The rim of a .50-90 fits the rim cut-out, but no way otherwise. A fireformed case from a 71/84 Mauser fits chambers nicely, but shoulder is too far back. Original .43 Spanish chambers nicely and comes closer to shoulder dimensions, but head and rim are still a bit small, and overall length appears too short. Can't locate anything in COTW that comes close enough to be a strong suspect. Neck diameter of the chamber would seem to indicate a bullet diameter below .450". say .446" or less?

Any ideas??

[elk hunter]

From your chamber cast it appears that the chamber rim recess depth would fit the 11 MM Mauser A base better than the 43 Spanish would. Will the breech close on your 11 MM Mauser round? If so I would think the Spanish round would have too much head space.

At the time your rifle was built there were no real standards for chambers and ammunition so one is left to do the best you can for ammunition fit.

[John in PA]

Thanks for your comment. I agree that there were no SAAMI standards back then, but machining tolerances were right on the money for designated cartridges, or they wouldn't pass inspection. Really trying to identify the mfgr-intended cartridge, and then will search for best parent case, brass and dies.

Breech closes with ease on both 43 Mauser and 43 Spanish. I have some old RCBS .43 Span Basic Brass I could use if I find nothing better.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This is interesting! I can't find any reference to a rifle-length cartridge with that head diameter. It would be interesting to see pictures of the rifle. Does it have a full-length stock and bayonet fitting, or is it a sporting stock? Steyr did fulfill all sorts of orders from countries and smaller groups which might not have required special stamps or crests - might have required them not to be there, in some cases. It could have been an experimental rifle, used in some of the hectic cartridge development that was going on at the time.

I have a straight-pull Mannlicher in the very rare 7.7x60R caliber, if you accept that it was widely misdescribed as rather longer than its true 60mm. Although described (incorrectly I think) as a combination gun, it was actually one of Professor Hebler's experimental concept guns, and would be very valuable if I hadn't rescued it as a rusty derelict barreled action. But it could just as easily be some gunsmith's coincidentally similar

I wouldn't conclude much from the apparent case length in that cast. It was probably meant for patched bullets, and it was common practice for chambers to step down from neck diameter only at the front of the patch.

There were surely cartridges around in those days which haven't survived in any reference book we have, and I have consulted a few. I have a straight-pull Mannlicher what may be the very rare 7.7x60R (if cartridge reference books are wrong in describing it as 2.48in. long, which isn't 60mm.), unless it was some gunsmith's coincidentally similar creation which never caught on. It is also possible that some such typo, parroted from one to another, prevents our recognizing your chambering as some other round which actually did have a head diameter of about .530in.

I can think of two possible origins for whatever it is. The Austrian M77 11.15x58R Werndl has a head diameter of .545in., and the Swedish 10.15x61R Jarmann .548. Fred Datig illustrates an 11.15x71R commercial cartridge with a .536in. head, and it was common for such cartridges to come in a variety of lengths. I doubt if the 71mm. length would fit the Martini action, so it was plain common sense to use the brass for something shorter. There are one or two other candidates, eliminated by having a much thinner rim than your chamber cast.

It makes sense for someone designing a cartridge which will rely on brass from unpredictable mass production, to reduce the head to the minimum ever likely to be available.

Whatever your cartridge is, it looks like a good one, with the beginning of the rifling in good condition. Bertram make the Werndl case, but it seems a shame to pay a lot of money and then do quite a bit of alteration. One possibility would be to lengthen a .45-70 case with 17/32 OD, ½in. ID K&S brass tubing, available from model-making shops or eBay. Or use a short length of it on a .45-90 case, with the rest expanded. C

Check first that your extractor will grip the smaller rim of the .45-70 case. I think the extractor would most likely stand up to being pinched slightly narrower in a vice, but "most likely" isn't good enough to risk part of a rifle like yours snapping with a sharp "Spink!" This picture is a piece of D2 air hardening steel striving to better itself, but I wouldn't want to do that again. If it is otherwise similar to the British military Martini extractor (as plenty of others were), here is a good source for Martini parts:

http://www.martinihenry.org/index.ph...3_69&limit=100

[martinibelgian]

One thing for sure - if your rifle doesn't have the 'armata romana' roundel, it isn't roumanian military issue - see below:

[Ballistics in Scotland]

One thing for sure - if your rifle doesn't have the 'armata romana' roundel, it isn't roumanian military issue - see below:

Probably not, although I wouldn't eliminate the possibility of the odd unmarked batch, in a country which achieved independence from the Turkish Empire during the Martini-Henry era, and which still allowed soldiers to wear makeup in 1914 - although as you would naturally expect, only for officers.

Unmarked plus no serial number plus a different cartridge together more or less eliminate military issue, but a demonstration or trials rifle remains a possibility. This is supported by its being the only Steyr firearm I know not to have had a serial number, or in this case "05" may have been a serial number within that small batch.


Here are some detailed photographs and other information on the issue Romanian Martinis. Assuming originality, it looks as if they used both the long and short cocking indicator which in the British service came with the MkIII of 1979. Martinis weren't a big part of Steyr's business, and it looks like they were more copyists on this one, rather than do the development work they did on other weapons.

http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/RiflesMartini.html

Can the title of this thread be edited? Somebody, someday, is going to be doing a search for information on another of these... if there is another. There might not be.

[martinibelgian]

Bad example, that one - That cocking indicator does look unmarked, the right one is marked, like just about any other part on the rifle. So this one could just be a replacementDon't forget OWG (Steyr nowadays) wasn't some kind of slap-dash oufit throwing together rifles - they probably were in the day one of the largest arms manufacturers in Europe. They also did make commercial rifles, and also sold some rifles to the Boer republics - chambered in 577-450.
These Roumanian issue rifles actually had 2 manufacturers - Witten at first, and then Steyr. Also, the Roumanian model is marked model 1879 - not 1882. Normally - and as shown above - the Armata romana roundel is on the right (cocking indicator) side, while the Steyr roundel with presumably the construction date is on the left side (1881 on mine). So this one would have been much too late for a trials rifle, as there already were standard issue rifles. My guess would be a commercial rifle. Don't forget military)style rifles were pretty popular in those days.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Josef Werndl founded the company with four times the capital of the Mauser brothers three years later, and in the 1880s it made more military firearms than all the factories of Britain, France and the United States put together. But either Steyr or the Romanians could have said "Suppose we change the cartridge a bit...?" at any time. People make a good living holding committee meetings about things like that.

A commercial sale is indeed quite likely, but central Europe didn't have the USA's profusion of state national guard units, and the natural thing would be to use the country's military cartridge. Target shooting leant more in the direction of disciplines like scheutzen etc., than military target shooting by individuals as in the UK. This rifle may have gone to some Third World country we have barely heard of, or it may have spent most of its life in the Steyr factory. It could even have lain there for a decade of two like my Portuguese Guedes did, after the Portuguese discovered it was a mistake to order the last single shot rifle in the world.

The seller clearly didn't do the research someone should, when selling a rifle for what a rare mint Martini is likely to have cost. But good as the No2 Musket is, I think the OP got luckier than he expected.

[John in PA]

One thing for sure - if your rifle doesn't have the 'armata romana' roundel, it isn't roumanian military issue - see below:

That's a jim dandy Romanian for sure!

Re: making brass. Probably won't use .45-70. I've got a box of .43 Spanish basic which has all the length I'll need, and base and rim are much closer to the chamber size. I've got enough types of obsolete cartridge dies that I can cobble together a batch of cases that will chamber close enough to fireform and use. I'll neck size after that. Probably will shoot it very little anyhow. But the detective work has definitely captured my attention.

Re: pictures. Lots on the gunbroker site. If you want to copy any for reference, I'd grab them soon, as GB takes the pictures down shortly after the item is sold. I'll remove the fore end again and take macro photos of the markings on the barrel, receiver, and barrel channel to add to this thread.

Thread title changed to reflect the mysterious nature of this rifle.

Any other sources of historical info on these Steyr Martinis? Not too much on British Militaria or the M-H forum that I can find.



http://www.gunbroker.com/item/560831608

[martinibelgian]

This site - which is static now - has a bit of information: http://www.militaryrifles.com/Romani...ab-Martini.htm
For some reason, these are pretty rare indeed (Steyr Martini's, and especially Roumanian issue ones), suggesting that they didn't make all that much of them. Apparently, their only customer as a country was Roumania, and then there are the odd commercial rifles, among which I'll also count the South African ones. Some carbines were also made, both by Witten and by Steyr.
For some more pics:

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Now, post title should be:

"What the heck is the cartridge that this Civilian Sale Unmarked Military Steyr Martini that otherwise looks like a Romanian Model is chambered for??"

There will come a time when a lot more people will ask the same question, and with reason, about civilian sale unmarked rifles which look like an American M16.

[shooter93]

There were several 500/450 rounds like Westly Richards and Eley which may have not been the same exact round so your search could get interesting. You might try calling Ammo-one.....a supplier to cartridge collectors. He maybe able to match it up for you. I was just handling a top of the line Holland hammer gun in that round today and it was proofed for Nitro rounds. It really looked almost unfired.

[TXGunNut]

Like most folks, here in the colonies at least, my only exposure to the British #2 cartridge is in the Quigley movie.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There were several 500/450 rounds like Westly Richards and Eley which may have not been the same exact round so your search could get interesting. You might try calling Ammo-one.....a supplier to cartridge collectors. He maybe able to match it up for you. I was just handling a top of the line Holland hammer gun in that round today and it was proofed for Nitro rounds. It really looked almost unfired.

Indeed there were, although it is very hard to distinguish between attaching one's own proprietary name to a cartridge (as Winchester and Marlin did too), and some with slight differences which were probably intended to fired in the same rifle. British big game hunting in Africa or India seldom involved reloading, so the position or shape of the case shoulder wasn't a big issue. I think you would even get something like accuracy, in safety, firing the No2 Musket cartridge in a rifle meant for the .500/.450 No1 Express - if the rifling twist permitted. WDM Bell the elephant hunter armed his caravan guards with Sniders and .577/.450 cartridges, since the right ones were unavailable, apparently safety though not accurately. But then, he thought they were better shots in the dark than in daylight.

For target rifles like the .461 Gibbs, however, reloading was commoner, and there was a brief period when a few hunters considered that one better than the Express rifles, with their thimble-shaped bullets and in some cases rifling that wouldn.t adequately stabilize a solid one. Certainly the good gunmakers of the period made bores and chambers very precisely to the dimensions they wanted. But they sometimes wanted something a little different from the others.

The .500/.450 No2 Musket is indeed one of the best black powder cartridges, and it is a sobering thought that it may have been the first of all drawn-brass cases. It was always rifled to handle heavy bullets, and the limited capacity makes it far more adaptable to smokeless than the really large ones. The same applies to the .450 New South Wales Police Carbine, which is simply a short version of the "modern" non-bottlenecked .450 Express, for which the standard size Martini could be chambered.