357 MAX White tail load

[quilbilly]

I have had a 357 max T/C carbine for many years and last winter added that 200+ gr Lee mold to the stable of other 357 boolits I have used in it because I wanted to use the carbine as a light bear rifle. When I got that mold I did some terminal ballistics tests in soaked, compressed phone books at 40 yards. The performance of that boolit amazed me. At 1750 fps with both the 200 gr RF-GC and a 162 gr SWC-GC, the penetration of the 162 gr was 12 inches (more than adequate for deer out to 150 yards. On the other hand, the 200 gr penetration was 22"plus with huge expansion which was much more than needed so I reduced the muzzle velocity to 1600 fps to make that light weight carbine more pleasant to shoot. One of the other boolits I shoot in that carbine is the Lyman 175 gr plain base SWC which I have pushed it to 1400 fps with not a hint of leading. At that velocity or even a little lower, that 173 gr. boolit is more than adequate for deer out to 100 yards as well as being fun to shoot in quantity.

[johnwilliamson062]

I received my barrel. I haven't opened the package yet. I am hoping to find a moment tonight after my wife is in bed
I need to get sights/optics on it. I will have to see exactly what D&T pattern it has front and rear.
I will start out with some factory loads.
That should give me 60-100 Jamerson headstamp brass to start reloading. Reviews aren't great, but should be ok to get started.
I think I will reload some factory bullets to start. There is a ton of data for FMJ and I am hesitant to use most of the data sources I have available for lead bullets. No offense to anyone here or elsewhere, but using load data posted on the internet by someone I don't know when I'm just starting out seems like a bad idea.
I'm guessing I will get set-up and aquainted with a factory load over the summer and hunt with that this Fall.
Sometime this fall I will start loading some jacketed commercial bullets.
Over the Winter I will load some commercial lead bullets.
Late winter or early spring I will start working on a lead boolit load I can hunt with next fall(and thereafter).

Could go faster if I could spend more time at the range, but getting to the range is a luxury.

Something some of you may enjoy:
At some point in that time frame I hope to get a suppressor for the rig so I can safely hunt without ear protection. Looking at the Griffin Armament Optimus as it will probably be the only one I ever buy.

[johnwilliamson062]

I'm also hoping to find some brass at the next OGCA meeting.

[Viper225]

As I mentioned above I have been looking over a lot of internet posted loading data.
Something to keep in mind. You have about 3 different strength levels of 357 maximums.

Weakest would be Revolvers.
Moderate would be Contenders and H&R SB1's. The SB1 receivers are the shotgun and lower pressure rifle receivers with the Large Firing Pins.
Strong would be Encores, and Single Shots on SB2 Hi Power Rifle receivers with small firing pins. NOTE: I have seen 357 Magnum Barrels marked SB2 on SB1 receivers from the factory. Look at the firing pin size.

The three strengths of firearms able to shoot 357 Maximum ammunition makes for conservative book data, even in the Contender Only section.

I have been testing lots of loads in a 357 Maximum Contender. Some internet data I have found, normally worked up in H&R Handi Rifles, and Encores is hotter than I plan to shoot in a Contender.

I suggest using 357 Maximum Single Shot " Contender " loading data until you are very comfortable reloading, and have a handle on what signs to look out for with loads that are too heavy.

If you are working up loads carefully using an Encore more than likely you will loosen up primer pockets before you hurt anything else. That same load in a Contender could stretch the frame. That same load in a Ruger Super BlackHawk might blow the cylinder. This is the reason the factory loading data can be a little on the conservative side depending on what you are shooting.

One needs to do a lot of research before exceeding book data.

From my limited testing of Jameson brass, you may loosen up primer pockets way early with Book Loads. I will have a much better handle on this next week when I switch from 360 Dan Wesson Brass to Jameson 357 Maximum brass for load development.

Just my two cents.

Bob

[jaysouth]

John,

Not sure where you are in Ohio but, I'd offer to lend you a hand with your Maximum if you'd like (PM me, if you'd like). I had MGM build me a custom 20" barrel for my Encore using a Shilen 1:18" twist blank (0.357"...not 0.358") since I wanted to shoot mostly pistol bullets. So far I've taken a couple of deer using Hornady 180 XTPs and they worked EXCEPTIONALLY well! More recently I've gotten a Liberty Mystic-X suppressor for it and have started playing around with cast boolits at subsonic speeds. I got my hands a several hundred NOE 360-230's (230gr solid FN and ~215gr HP's). They seem to be stabilizing and grouping nicely. Of course, I'll keep those shoots under 75 yards...if I decide to use it. I also have a great plinking loading using 140gr Chey-Cast bullets and 5.4grs of Trail Boss. Well anyway, enough rambling! PM me if you'd like to chat more and I'll do what I can to help you out.

ps....might even be able to spare a few brass to help get you started. I'll warn you though...it's easy to totally fall in love with the 357 Maximum!

What powder do you use for the 230 Gr. and what is a good starting load. Thanks

[P Flados]

Viper, I just noted the "obvious" warning that has not been mentioned.

Working up slow and cautious is usually good when substituting stuff.

However, there is a special case where you can get in trouble with this approach.

H110 and WW296 are very popular powders that work well in the 357 mag/max. They really are great, but they can cause problems any time you have too much free space in the casing. Using a load published for a 357 magnum in a 357 maximum case would be an easy way to make this happen.

You may want to use one of these powders in your encore and you may want to substituting a boolit instead of j word. This is really no big deal. Try to start out "mid range" with the powder charge (if there is a range of data available) and start out seating the boolit at least as deep into the case as the j word loads would have been.

After firing you starting loads, pay attention to how subsequent loads behave if you increase the free space. If you go too far with the free space the boom/flash will start getting inconsistent and/or worse with reduced loads or increased OAL. This is caused by poor ignition of the H110 / WW296. Primers may also start to look worse.

I have fired lots of "home brew" 357 max boolit loads with WW296. I never had any problems at all, but I never went for "reduced" loads.

I have had much more issues trying to work up WW 296 boolit loads in 30 Herrett and 30-30 for my contender. I gave up on this powder in these cases and went to I4227 or slower.

[johnwilliamson062]

I'm going to have to start with published 357 max data. I'm acutely aware of the increased case area issues, "j word," checked, and lead difference issues, and some others and don't feel anywhere comfortable enough to try crossing the beams at this point. There is a sufficient amount of jacketed bullet data available. I may just make getting set-up and shooting some factory ammo my goal for this year, then loading some jacketed commercial bullets next year, and working up to a lead/check bullet in two years. I just passed 30, so I hope to have quite a few more years to work this out

[1966DDart]

What powder do you use for the 230 Gr. and what is a good starting load. Thanks

I'll have to double check when I get home (currently working in the UK until early July) but, I'm pretty sure I was right at 5.5gr of Red Dot. With the 215gr HP version of that bullet, I think I dropped down to 5.1gr. Again, I'll have to double check. There were NO signs of pressure and Quickload was showing the pressure WELL below the Maximum's maximum.

[gwpercle]

That Lee mold at $21 from midway as a starting point is pretty hard to pass by. Pretty much everything I'm looking for on the heavy side of my options.

Go ahead and start with the double cavity Lee , read all about Lee mould prep, deburing and cleaning before you use it. They come with a few rough edges that need smoothing out.
For $21.00 you have to do a bit of hand finishing but it's a value and the double cavities are good.
Get the C358-200-RF , use gas checks and learn. That would be a great weight in that round, Silhouette shooters used heavy boolits in their T/C Contenders . Not a great amount of data out there but dig deep and you will find some. Wasn't the most popular round to come down the pike. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 might have some...my book's at home, I'll check . Try the powder companies load data sites, Accurate Powder site shows load data. Just search "357 maximum load data" some things pop up .
Once you get things sorted out and find you are going to stay with the 357 MAX and this boolit , treat yourself to a Noe version of this mould. Casting with one is just a pure joy, they are nice and I only own two. The other 2 dozen are Lee , Lyman and one RCBS...the NOE is the Cadillac .
I bought and tried a bunch Lee moulds for 38/357 mag and 9mm Luger and when I decided on my favorites....bought a 3 cavity 38/357 and a 4 cavity 9 mm NOE mould in the weights and designs I settled on. Not a bad plan if you don't know exactly what you want.
Good luck and load safe,
Gary

[johnwilliamson062]

Well, I ended up missing the last OGCA meeting. I hadn't realized in coincided with taking my wife on her first trip to DC and Williamsburg.
Getting down to crunch time if I want this to be ready to go for this season, so I started ordering the finishing touches tonight. 357 Max on ammo seek brought up something new:
http://www.ammo-texas.com/shop/rifle-ammo/357-maximum/
Would that be better brass than the Jameson brass? Limited knowledge of nickel brass, but remember reading it is not fun to reload.

[MT Gianni]

Any max brass you can find , get. Nickle is not harder to reload it can and will after several years flake and can damage a die.

[johnwilliamson062]

make any difference if it is steel or carbide? I'll buy a box and give them a try.

[P Flados]

Nickle plated brass works fine.

I have used 357 max, 357 mag and 38 special nickle plated brass for decades & the minor flaking has caused no problems at all.

FYI, It is a real shame that Jamison appears to have made such a limited run. It was only available for a few months and the price was steep (I paid something like 40.60 per 100).

This add was for new ammo at $37.50 per 50 ($75 per 100).

It is only ~$34 per 100 above what I paid for brass.

Reloading J words will cost at least $29 per 100 for primers (~$3), powder (~$6) and projectiles (~$20).

[Greg]

35 Thor in Florida

I don’t know if this was ever posted with the thread on the 35 Thor, but it’s my experiences to date with a 357 Maximum…


I had cast the .35 Thor out of 50:50 + ¾% Sn alloy (236 grains) and loaded over 18½ grains of W296 for 1671 fps out of a 22" H&R barrel. 357 Maximum brass at 2.200" oal, lit with a RP 7½ primer.

I took my 15 year old neighbor boy and my ole hunting buddy to Fla to hunt (more like assonate) some hogs.

the kid was shooting the 357 Max and had first dibs as having little to none practical experience. directly, a nice @185 lb hog shows up. him & I were side x side in an elevated blind.

now youth Deer season a nice 6 point walks in on us on his side of the tree we was sittin again an I first notice that he took to shaking like a leaf ( possum passing a peach pit, really ) that lil buck had him pinned like a bird dog on a covey of Quail birds. that boy shook and quivered for the whole 5-10 minutes that the lil Buck had him dead to right the whole time I was calmly whispering instructions to move real slooow, wait till the deers head is behind a tree ect. he did real good, but the scent finally got to the lil buck an he walked away with out a care nor a scratch. kid took to second guessing, shoulda, coulda moved his lil 20 ga real fast and killed him. course us ole timers know lots better, but couldn’t seem to break the kids funk.

any way I got nothing but love for the boy so he gets best gun/load and first shot on the Florida hog trip…

nice eating hog shows up and the boy is solid as a rock, a lil coaching and the 4x Simmons Pro Diamond settles in an BOOM ! (no shakes, no dilly dandling, just take no mercy, boom) at the shot three things happen fast, right now fast ! hog’s back half drops, the hog squeals and falls over, kicks 2-3 times and is grave yard dead. right now, right there.

to say that I’m impressed is an understatement, I’m very proud of the boy and his maturity, but the 35 Thor just flat works, right now!

that hog was dead before the gun quit recoiling.

when It come my turn, I was shootin a H&R 30-30 with a old Lee GB 312-155 grain FP out of air cooled WW alloy at 2015 fps.

my hog was about 200 lbs and come in to he feeder with a group of a dozen other hogs, and he took his sweet ole time to get clear of the others…finally it was time for the 30-30 to speak, at the shot the hog took off like a streak ( I had lost sight of him in the recoil) when the gun come down it wasn’t no hog laying dead ! nothing !

I asked the kid where did he go, I was having a hard time seeing that the 30 caliber was not as efficient as the 35 Thor…same basic profile but 55 grains lighter, an maybe 50% harder.

well, the hog was dead but after about a 5 yard run.

in the Palmetto scrub a 5 yard run is a long way, it was blood every ware in the sand, just not as impressive as the 35 Thor. same basic bollit placement ( just tight behind the shoulder, but cut the back edge of the scapula )

Greg

[leftiye]

Good times!

[Sur-shot]

John,
This is my avitar enlarged a bit, it is just one of my 357 Super Mag rifles (Max if you must). My favorite cast load for the rifles is 23.5 gr of H-110 with Fed 205m primer under an RCBS 200gr FP with a profile crimp, NO roll crimp on a single shot if you want it to shoot, this pictured little rifle shoots .5 inches at 2,003 fps. It will roll Bambi stone cold dead.

The 180gr RCBS will produce about 100 fps or so more velocity and about the same accuracy.

I have owned a lot of the 357 SMs over the years, well over two dozen, there is a good bit of assumption written here which is not correct for a rifle. You go read David White's writings and his forum about the 357 SM rifles, because the handgun reloading stuff is worthless for your rifle adventure, you are not restricted to a cylinder or cylinder length, so forget it.
Ed

[Moleman-]

Sur-shot, I have been shooting the same bullet at around 1850fps but have yet to hunt with them and have been using the discontinued 180gr ssp at around 2150fps. How hard are you casting the rcbs 200gr-fp? In order for them to function in my semi rifle they have to be harder than I'd like so I haven't tried them on deer yet.

[Beerd]

Moleman-
There is a sticky on casting soft point bullets with any mould.
Search for Bruce B soft point.
It could be what you are looking for to hunt with the rcbs 200gr bullet.
..

[Moleman-]

Thank you Beerd, I hadn't found that yet and I think it will be most useful! I did talk about making soft tipped bullets last fall with KLR on another site but haven't tried it yet.

[leftiye]

If you use heat treated boolits, you can simply anneal the points/tips. I use tempilaq 300 degree. Paint the points (even if they are flat and not a point), and heat until the tempilaq melts. One advantage of heat treating.