Real deal 9x39

[kawasakifreak77]

Long story, I'm pretty much obsessed with the 9x39...

The 9x39 is a subsonic only round based on the 7.62x39 that fires ball & AP projectiles around 260 grains, quite the thumper. Used by the Roosky spetznaz in a few different suppressed automatic rifles. I have been working tirelessly with cartridge collectors to make a couple Russian contacts that have access to these rounds. I am finalizing a deal to get cases & unfired projectiles here.

Due to their specialized usage, they are very illusive. I went to SLICS (St. Loius international cartridge show, the end all be all of cartridge shows) & there, I saw one SP6 (first generation armor piercing) round for $120...

The kicker was it was inerted. Apparently, Russians are not allowed to have live military cartridges.

Point of all this is I would like to build a rifle in 9x39. To do so I need actual case dimensions, which I haven't been able to find. So my plan is, get the actual 9x39 from Russia to measure & reverse engineer dies & a reamer. I've never tackled a project like this though, so anyone out there that has experience with a custom project like this, please chime in.

Notes:

The rifle sacrificed for this project will be a CZ527 already in 7.62x39. I think the straighter case walls will actually work better in the 527 magazine versus the more tapered 7.62x39. Hopefully once the bullet diameter & case dimensions are verified, it will just be a rebarrel job.

I know about the 358 Gremlin & various other 35 caliber x39 based wildcsts, I am not interested in those. The Russian round is somewhere around .364" diameter (thats only what I've read, no confirmation) I am after a real 9x39 rifle. Of course it won't be a VSS or AK9 but the charming little CZ527 tossing 250+ grain of subsonic smack sounds like music to my ears.

It will be suppressed of course. My dad & I have a MysticX coming on our trust. A strong 9mm silencer that should work well.

As I will only be able to get a handful of the actual russian AP projectiles, I would need to source a suitable mould to use once I have my cases formed.

Questions:

As far as confirming the actual case dimensions, my contact in Russia can get me fired or unfired cases. I figure I would need one of each. One fired to see what dimensions the chamber is & an unfired one to have a custom set of dies made. Correct?

What do you guys think? Is this possible?

Any constructive thoughts or information greatly appreciated.

-Raymond.

[Skipper]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×39mm

[kawasakifreak77]

I've noted the wiki article but it only shows a few dimensions.

[BK7saum]

Since you are basically creating a wildcat with custom reamers, dies, etc, why don't you just design your own 9x39 off the Grendel case dimensions or pick a body taper and shoulder angle that suits your needs the best. I did an Ackley case once and will likely not have any 40 degree shouldered cases again.

Also in regard to the Russian case, you listed a 0.364" diameter. Since I'm assuming that you are planning on a 357 barrel, and are not staying totally true to the Russian designed cartridge, designing your own seems even more like the right thing to do. Pick any cartridge out there and I'm sure you could come up with a tweak or two that would improve the cartridge, be it a change in neck length, more or less body taper, or shoulder angle.

FWIW, If it were me and I was going to have to order custom reamers and dies anyway, I'd just design my own.

[JHeath]

Lucky you. I have them on sale this week for $99.99 per round.

[JHeath]

Ha ha. I looked into converting a CZ527 to 9x39, or better yet some equivalent made from 5.56 brass. You can make 9x23 from 5.56 brass but probably not 9x39. And I kept running into the fact that I would be reinventing .351 Winchester Self-Loading.

[kawasakifreak77]

I'm not wanting to make my own cartridge, I'm wanting to chamber my own rifle in the real 9x39. I've read several threads about various wildcats & those aren't of any interest.

For a barrel I'm hoping a 9.3mm (.366") blank will work. If not I'll find someone to cut a custom blank bored to the proper diameter.

[M-Tecs]

Sound like its just a 7.62 x 39 Russian necked up to 9mm.

I would give Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool a call. He may have the specs.
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/

[kawasakifreak77]

Sound like its just a 7.62 x 39 Russian necked up to 9mm.

I would give Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool a call. He may have the specs.
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/

From what I've read, for the most part it is, only with much straighter case walls. If you necked up 7.62x39 without any other changes, there would be basically no shoulder left.

There is another round for Russian civilians that is basically a necked up 7.62x39 with no other changes. .366 tsw or something like that. Not being allowed .mil cartridges its a conversion for kalash pattern weapons the is legal for civilians. Interesting as it is classified as a shotgun. By their laws, shotguns are much easier to obtain than rifles.

I will check out that link, thank you.

[303Guy]

Are these the civilian version?

[kawasakifreak77]

Are these the civilian version?

As far as I know yes. Are those stateside?

[Fishman]

Mayb3 the NOE mould for the 9.3x62 and 9.3x57 would work. It is 285 grains though. It casts .366.

[303Guy]

As far as I know yes. Are those stateside?

I don't know. I found that on Google. Judging by the missing 'S' from 'WEAPON", I would say that's Russian.

[funnyjim014]

I would love to rebarrel a sks for this baby.

[1BIGGUN]

Contact HCpookie he was working on a a 9x39 AK an had a original round an I think had a reamer made . His thread is on Gunco as well as he has his own site if its still up . Last I checked it was down but hes around. good guy .

[alecbh]

I have been doing research into the same, and thought about trying to buy some of the projectiles and spent casings from Russian collectors, but I'm no lawyer, and I don't want to run afoul of ITAR. I was finally able to find what looks to be reasonably close chamber dimensions, and I drew the cartridge up in Autodesk Inventor from those dimensions. I've done a little bit of pricing, and from what I can tell, the cheapest way to get just a barrel and dies in 9x39 (or the closest facsimile possible) would be around $700. Unless someone can produce a Russian chamber drawing, I don't think we'll get any closer than this:

http://www.municion.org/9altres/9x39Kalashnikov.htm

My drawing in Inventor using these dimensions looks nearly identical to the pictures I've found of 9x39. I've sent you a PM on the subject, if we could get a few like-minded people together, the costs could come down to a more stomach-able level.

Bore diameter must be .366. It's actually 9.3mm, much like 9mm Makarov is actually 9.3mm, which makes a lot of sense regarding the Russians and their shared bore diameters. Each attempt at something resembling 9x39 I've seen has been .358 dia, which is just not correct. The best part about moving to the correct .366 dia is that it opens up the world of 9.3mm Mauser bullets, which are properly heavy for subsonic loads. The biggest issue I've seen with regards to 9.3mm bullets is the possibility that the ogive may be too long on many of the bullets to allow seating to mag-length in firearms designed for 7.62x39. Either way, being on castboolits, bullet molds are a thing and this cartridge is designed for subsonic bullets, so bare lead would work just fine.

[footpetaljones]

You could try to find a picture of the round taken head on and calibrating the image based on known dimensions (rim diameter) to double check the bore diameter. I'm not sure if Inventor has a Calibrate function, but I know Fusion does.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Neat project. You might try contacting Russian gun bloggers? One by the handle of Hyperprapor hits all the military expos, and I believe mentioned a civilian VSS suppressed rifle displayed this year. They might be able to get some factory information for you.

[paul h]

All things possible with time and money. Ideally if you could get a fired case or two you could send it to a reamer maker to make you a chambering reamer and a reamer for making a sizing die, even if all you have is dimensions have the reamer grinder make you a set of reamers. Then send your gunsmith the rifle, barrel blank, the two reamers and die blanks. The chamber reamer will be used for the barrel and seating die, and the sizing die reamer for the sizing die. Unless you ever plan to make another, you can recoup most of your cost on the reamers by selling them.

The one thing I'd figure out before embarking on the project is what barrel twist is required to stabilize the heavy bullets subsonic. 0.366" (9.3mm) barrel blanks might not have a fast enough twist as they are designed to stabilize 286 gr bullets @ ~2400 fps and I think 1-12" is fairly common.

Bullet molds are simple enough, but the round has a fairly short neck and in my experience if you go with a gas checked bullet you really should have the gas check seated in the neck for best accuracy.

[Tackleberry41]

Barrel twist will be a big issue, the Russians may use the common size of the 9mm Makarov, but a faster twist to stabilize the heavier slow bullets. A 9.3mm barrel may work fine for heavy bullets at full power, not so much once slowed down.

I see what your trying to do, but probably way easier ways to get the same results. I wanted something like the 300AAC, but without buying all the stuff. I already load for 30-30, but not gonna find a 30-30 with a fast twist barrel. But a 1-7 blank was easy to get, a 30-30 reamer is easy to get. Did a barrel stub in a Rossi single shot. It shoots 230gr cast with just as much accuracy as a 300AAC chambered AR, and quieter since I am not restricted to the powders required to cycle a semi auto. Super sonic loads are just as easy to make using existing data.

Not one to say 'why bother' as I make plenty of my own crazy stuff that its easy to question the reasons when you can get something else easier. But that 9x39 is a whole pile of effort for little return.