building a Muzzle loader from scratch

[crackerjack57]

not sure if this is the best place to post this question but here goes......


Im "Thinking" about building a muzzle loader from scratch. when I say scratch, I mean buying a piece of seamless steel tube, rifling it, filing it to a hexagon etc. im thinking about making it a wheel lock style ignition and .54 cal. I know I can buy a ready made barrel, lock, stock and all furnishings but i have WWAAAAYYYY too much time on my hands.

I noticed an add in one of my magazines selling a book called "The craft of Black Powder fire arms by Tom Rogers." dont know if this might have some guidance and direction for me as the add is vague so thought id ask or have some of you seasoned veterans steer or stear me straight!

Thanx
Dan

[square butte]

First piece of advice: Forget the seamless tubing. It is not adequate for barrel material, and by many estimations unsafe. Get yourself a Track of the Wolf catalog or go to their website. and acquire a book or three on Building muzzleloaders. Pick the ones you are most attracted to by the Title and book description. You will find them on the Track ... website. Get yourself over the AmericanLongrifles.com (a builders website). Hundred of years of experience at your beck and call. Many members from Canada there. This is just a scratch of the surface of an answer for you. Others will chime in.

[Blackwater]

Good suggestions above, and I'd also recommend Dillin's "The Kentucky Rifle." In this one, he has actual pictures of the rifling "machines" (made of wood, almost totally) that some of the old, original makers had used in their day.

And FWIW, I have a friend who used to be a really good gunsmith and a real rifle looney. He built quite a few really great benchrest rifles, which was his first love later in life before he and his wife crashed in a light plane. His wife was killed in it, but he survived, but lost the use of his hands almost totally, ending his gunsmithing for good. A real tragedy for a great guy like him! But in his earlier years, he made a barrel out of an old wagon axle he found, complete with rifling it himself, and making it octagonal. Then he cut a tree (cherry or maple, IIRC?) and made a stock, and furnished it with trigger guard, lock plate, side plate, butt plate and patch box he made himself out of sheet steels. He even forged his own hammer! He did "compromise" in using factory bought nipples (it was a caplock). He said every time I ever heard him mention it or asked him about it, that he'd NEVER attempt that EVER again! But some guys have to pee on the electric fence just to prove it to themselves. I know. I'm one of those types too! But misery loves good company, and if you're going to do it, to a LOT of investigating first, particularly on how heat affects different metals. Steels aren't "strong" unless and until they've been heat treated. Most of the older guns, though, were made of pretty mild stuff. If you want to use really heavy loads, though, I'd definitely recommend using a good grade of steel. You won't want for work even then, I assure you! FWIW?

[Rustyleee]

A really good book to read that covers a lot of the basics is Foxfire book #5. The Foxfire books started out as a project to send school kids out into the field to interview people about old crafts. #5 covers flintlock rifle making.

[jmorris]

Filing it! and I thought I had a lot of time on my hands.

[Wayne R. Scott]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lui6uNPcRPA

good video.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...321/1/BOOK-GGC

good book.

[M-Tecs]

Always loved that video.

Some background here:

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Writi...retires_mb.htm

http://www.cte.uw.edu/emc/title/1234

[rking22]

If you have a serious interest in doing this and some time on your hands I would suggest looking into the classes offered by NMLRA (NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar at Western Kentucky University). I think the classes are generally late May, so maybe too late for this year.
The House brothers teach a week long class taking you from flat iron to funiture but you still start with a purchased barrel and lock. Thing is you will meet people there that can and have done what you are considering. Last time I checked Wallace Gussler was teaching, note the above movie ! I have not checked is several years due to work obligations, but did attend a class 2 years running and highly reccomend the experience! I was able to actually shoot one of those hand built rifles, priceless experience!

[waksupi]

The seamless tubing is a half-assed dangerous way of going about it. Make a good barrel, or buy one. Same thing for the lock. Unless you are a talented machinist, you most likely will not make a good one. Do you have any idea just how difficult it is to build a wheel lock?
Forget the Firefox instructions, another half-assed way to go about things. Get "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" if you want to know how to build a rifle.
Ignore this if you wish, I am currently building #164 for muzzleloaders.
By the way, I have seen some of Tom Roger's instruction books. I've not seen one that would give a novice a clue, and experienced builders a laugh. He's a local guy that keeps hid out, as he is aware the other locals are on to his BS.

[crackerjack57]

GENTLEMEN!! thank you!! I knew that I asked the right question to the right people. I have a lot of good info above that I will now spend some of my time going over. I dont know how difficult it would be to make a wheel lock however I am an electrician by trade, now work in the steel industry, have seasoned, experienced "real" blacksmiths at my beck and call, a lathe and milling machine on my work bench and " possibly " not enough sense to say; better leave this to the pro's!!

im going to get some of the books suggested above and probably pass on the Tom Rogers book. going to those classes in the southern states would be nice but probably cost prohibitive. I guess i have a lot of research to look into.

here is a question i have if some of you could shed some light on. regarding my thoughts of using seamless steel tube as a barrel blank. without getting something more then your standard steel seamless tube, the tensile strength is 65,000 going with a minimum wall at the skinniest parts of the flat of the barrel wall of .280 using the barlow's formula I get a 36,000 bursting pressure. if im not mistaken the usual operating pressure of a muzzle loader is in the 10,000 - 12,000 psi range or am i out to lunch?? this gives me a safety factor of 3:1 can any of you seasoned veterans shed some light on my thought process?

[Blackwater]

Stiffen that upper lip, crackerjack, and just lay in on it. Worst that can happen is you'll wind up with a LOT more respect for those old 'smiths, and the good newer ones, and you'll be out some time and money.

But what are time and money for, in the end, if not for our edification? Just don't put yourself on any sort of time schedule, take it slow, pick your methods and techniques carefully, and who knows what you might wind up making in the end?

And just remember, there's really NO substitute for "doing it right," and that included the materials you choose for each part involved. Then, once you've made one, you'll have the skills to make many more, using bought or self-made parts.

And that, sir, is something few today have ANY aptitude or knowledge of how to do! All real knowledge costs us something. Best advice I've ever gotten in situations like this is "Go for it."

Just my 2 cents' worht, anyway. Developing skills is always a worthy pursuit, even if the initial efforts aren't quite right. With those things, we almost always get to try a 2nd time and often get it right then. Just don't get in a hurry and concentrate on developing your skills, and don't ever say, "Well, that's probably good enough." Don't rest until it's as perfect as you can make it.

After all, things like this are a labor of love .... AND an answer to a challenge to your own self, and those never operate on a time clock.

[square butte]

Seamless tubing has been discussed and examined over and over in the muzzle loading community - Regardless of what your figures show you, It is not safe

[M-Tecs]

Hoop strength and slag inclusions of seamless pipe are greater areas of concern verse tensile strength.

[crackerjack57]

have others out there in the past tried using a true seamless steel tube for a barrel? Im not talking a DOM tube that starts off as a welded seam and then has a mandrel drawn through and over to squish the seam to something that resembles seamless. hence drawn over mandrel (DOM) im talking a true seamless.

[rking22]

I believe a Comercial builder used seamless tubing for a while and stopped due to some unexplained splits in use, fatigue possibly, don't remember for sure. Also do not remember the maker but was related to fowlers, therefore much thinner but it told me not to go there. If you want to gundrill and rifle a barrel, I understand. I would start with an 1100 series free machining rod, gundrill, ream and rifle as the barrel makers do.

[John Taylor]

I have heard the stories over and over about seamless tubing and wonder how many have actually tested it to see if it would blow up. Consider the old barrels started out as a flat piece of wrought iron and forge welded the full length, could it be any better than than the welded tube today? A true seamless tube is not welded but rolled from a billet. The weld on DOM tube ( drown over mandrel ) has no flaws in the weld and can be as strong as seamless tube. For many years muzzle loading barrel have been made from 12L14 which is not considered the strongest metal but has some of the best machining qualities, you can cut rifle it without using cutting fluid. There were some that said it was not strong enough for muzzle loading rifle so Jerry Cunningham of Orion barrel company did a lot of testing to see if he could blow one up, sometimes using as many as five balls and five times the amount of powder. They say Damascus barrels are unsafe because of flaws in the weld, the whole barrels is weld. I have seen a few that have let go mostly because they were made very thin sometimes and rust will weaken them a lot.
Getting back to DOM tube, I have made a few barrels from it with no problems. One in 45-70 on an 1886 Winchester shot great and never blew up.
Until someone can show me evidence that DOM tube will blow up with black powder I am not going to believe made up stories. Now if someone was going to make a barrel from water pipe I would run for the hills. If you try to blow up a piece of DOM by putting a breach plug at both ends like Dixie gun works did in one of their test you might get a visit from ATF for making a pipe bomb.

[mazo kid]

.....Forget the Firefox instructions, another half-assed way to go about things. Get "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" if you want to know how to build a rifle.
Ignore this if you wish, I am currently building #164 for muzzleloaders.
By the way, I have seen some of Tom Roger's instruction books. I've not seen one that would give a novice a clue, and experienced builders a laugh. He's a local guy that keeps hid out, as he is aware the other locals are on to his BS.

Plus one on the Peter Alexander book!

[oldred]

I am with John on this one as long as a good quality seamless tube is used, I have some, a piece about 10 feet long, that is one inch OD by half inch ID that *appears* to be a CM alloy judging by the hardness and the way it machines plus it will through harden if heated and quenched, I have done this with it to make hardened bushings for pins used on farming equipment. I have often thought about using this stuff for a barrel and I would have no concerns at all about strength, I would NEVER consider using it with smokeless but I seriously doubt it would be a problem if it was used for that,,,,,still common sense says not to!


With Blackpowder it likely would be way stronger than the vast majority of the Blackpowder rifles available but regardless it could easily be tested prior to making into a barrel, a very heavy test load on a length of this material with one end plugged and fired remotely, or even with a fuse, would verify it's suitability. If I didn't have so many projects going I might try doing just that, 54 caliber would clean up that bore nicely!


One other consideration however is that a new piece of this type of tubing might cost nearly as much as a new barrel.

[John Taylor]

Cost is a big factor. I can get a drilled and reamed blank for around $100. Green mountain sell rifled barrel blanks for cartridge gun at about that price.

[crackerjack57]

Thanks guys for the input. I understand that there's many on this forum that have done many things with barrels. And I appreciate all the input it is very valuable as I don't want to hurt myself or anybody else around me either . Myself being in steel think that I see CDS steel tube might be a great way to go for a barrel. There are no inconsistencies in the weld to worry about as there was in the days of old where everything was forge welded as there truly is no weld to consider. It's a solid piece of steel. Before I even tried it in a rifle I would probably do a 3 to 4 time normal load with two balls in test away from everybody to make sure that there are no issues. If they were making barrels out of 12 L 14, that is a much weaker then the CDS that I am suggesting. And agreed, I would only try this with Blackpowder not with anything else