357 Maximum

[ubetcha]

SSGOldfart. Email sent

[P Flados]

I did find the article and he talks about the 223 brass does has the ability to stretch to 35 cal and still be close to the same neck thickness as 357max brass. he stated that he can cut the chamber to be used by both rimmed and rimless brass if needed if you trim the 223 brass to 1.70 or trim to 1.60 and keep the same chamber length. only thing would be that the edge that is needed to support the rimless case at the throat may shave a cast bullet if using max brass. At the time of the newsletter that was sent, he said he has not explored that concern as of yet. I would post the newsletter,but I don't know if re-posting his newsletter would be permissible with him or the Mods. I would think that if one was interested in such a thing, an Email to Mike may be in order. The 357Max is his favorite caliper, so I think he puts a lot of input into it

I have plenty of max cases, but I did play around with making some "rimless max" cases from 223 brass. I shot them in my factory TC 10" barrel with a borrowed rimless extractor (from my 222 barrel). The extractor was Ok but not great for headspacing. A chamber cut for a rimless would work much better. Expanding out a portion of the original neck & shoulder to get full length max cases is something of a PITA and I was not completely happy with the results (they did not want to stretch out evenly and smoothly).

However, if you did get a gun with chamber cut to headspace as either rimmed of rimless, there would be no reason for any bullet shaving provided that you used full length cases.

On the other hand, there would be bullet shaving in a gun with this chamber shaving when firing a 38 special or a 357 magnum. The bullet would be completely out of the brass before it reached the headspacing step.

As I was playing around with the rimless max concept, I decided that a chamber cut to handle both rimmed and rimless in a DW 360 length would be better for most uses. With this length, the 223 cases are simply cut off with no need to expand part of the original shoulder. There are many example where a max is OK and a DW 360 is not ok.

Also, a 360 DW rimless opens up the ability to load 357 magnums with the bullet seated out real far such the some of the full diameter portion of the bullet goes in past the headspacing step in the chamber prior to firing. Since these rounds will be way too long for any of the "light weight" revolvers, you can probably load to full DW 360 pressures with no real "lost ammo" safety concerns.

However, consider that I have already gathered probably close to 1000 free 223 / 5.56 once fired brass even though I have no use for the stuff (yet). It is hard to imagine not just going with converted brass for all of you loads with this concept.

[Viper225]

360 Dan Wesson brass should do a pretty fair job until a supply of 357 Maximum Brass is built up.
With the wife shooting it during deer season, and practicing some with it, I will probably load it a little on the conservative side. At least I do not plan on any loads that will loosen up the primer pockets.
It looks like 357maximum has been working with 300MP powder. From his posts he likes it about as well a N120. I have a supply of 300MP that I have been working with in both 44 magnum, as well as 480 Ruger. Both in Super RedHawks. I see 300MP as a very good powder to try out. LilGun and H110 also seem to be favorites in the 357 Maximum.
For deer hunting all my research indicates that Hornady 180 XTP's are the best jacketed bullet readily available. I have read several posts where the author bragged on the Hornady 180 SSP bullets in the 357 Maximum. Most say they have never recovered a bullet either. Per Dave Whites testing the 180 SSP cannot be driven hard enough to expand from a 357 maximum.
I have been using the 180 SSP in my 35 Bullberry ( Basically a 35 Remington Rimmed using 375 Win Brass) Contender barrel for years. I see a change to 180 XTP's in it after looking at Dave Whites expanded bullet collection.
The 180 XTP on the other hand expanded beautifully, as does the 180 Remington bullet. In cast the NOE 360-180 GC with I believe a 72% Meplat should be a good choice, and the RCBS 200 grain both have a following. I have a note on the LBT 180 WFN-GC that has 74% Meplat listed. That should have possibilities also. As I already have a new 5 cavity NOE 360-180 GC mold it will be my first and probably only cast bullet in the 357 Maximum.
I plan to give the 357 Maximum Jamison brass a work out. It had a cracking issue a couple years back. I have not found anything written about the Jamison brass the last couple years to tell me the problem has been taken care of. I should be able to take care of that testing and see if the brass quality is tolerable. As expensive as it is, it should be good.
I should be able to do some loading and testing next week. We have rain forecast off and on all week. It is nice to have an 18' X 60' covered firing line on the 25 - 200 yard Multi Purpose Range.

Bob R

[quilbilly]

I have shot 357 mag's with moderate loads in my 357 max in my Contender carbine on occasion until I built up a supply of max brass. The load was a 158 gr at 1100 fps. They shot passably well (not great) at 100 yards so you do have that option as long as you clean any buildups in the chamber. This is much like 38 specials in a 357. In fact, I liked that load so much that I continued with it in max brass which improved the accuracy.

[NSB]

I've shot several deer with my .357max Browning low wall. Using 180g Hornady XTP's I've gotten great expansion. I've also used the 158g XTP which some say it too light for the caliber. They also expanded well even at the higher velocities. I have a pretty full spreadsheet of different bullets, powders, and primers shot from this gun and it's hard to change from the 180 XTP's. I know this is a cast bullet board, but for hunting I just can't find anything better.

[quilbilly]

I have done several terminal ballistics tests with various projectiles in the 357 max. Using soaked, compacted phone books for media at 40 yards, the penetration of some boolits and jacketed is very interesting. None of the SWC's or jacketed boolits achieved much more than 10" of penetration even at an MV of 1900 fps which is more than plenty for deer. On the other hand a 155 gr RNPB at 1300 fps easily matched the others for penetration while was much more pleasant to shoot for practice. The new 204 gr. RFGC from Lee penetrated a whopping 21+ inches with big expansion even though the MV was 1650 fps making it a serious short range bear or elk projectile.

[NSB]

I shot a deer last year at a measured 110 yards with a Hornady 180g XTP. The deer was angled toward me and the bullet entered just behind the front leg and exited out the rear leg on the opposite side. It was an average size deer, not a fawn. The exit hole was fairly big and the deer didn't go far. I guess using wet phone books, etc. tells you something (sort of) but it's not the same results as shooting a live animal.

[Viper225]

I did a little loading, and made it to the range yesterday.
360 Dan Wesson Brass
Primers: Remington 7-1/2 Small Rifle BR
Powder: 300 MP
Charge Weight: 20.0
Bullet: NOE 360-180 WFN-GC
OAL: 1.815
Crimp: Very Lite Taper Crimp (Pretty much took the bell out of the case)

Velocity Readings:
1844
1827
1825
1827
1854
Average Velocity: 1835 FPS Extreme Spread: 29 FPS

I had a couple more to try. The next was with 20.5 grains of 300 MP The reading was 1854 FPS. Last was 21.0 grains of 300 MP for 1900 FPS.

All loads just fell out of the 13 Inch MGM Contender barrel. The case exteriors were clean after firing. No pressure signs could be detected. I believe 21.0 grains of 300 MP may be pretty close to a Maximum Load. Temperature was around 80 degrees.

357 Maximum Cases
Primers: Remington 7-1/2 Small Rifle BR
Powder: 300 MP
Charge Weight: 22.0
Bullet: NOE 360-180 WFN-GC
OAL: Second Crimp Groove same as with the 360 DW cases.
Crimp: Very Lite Taper Crimp (Pretty much took the bell out of the case)

Velocity Readings:
1839
1861
1930
1834
1913
Average Velocity: 1875 FPS
Extreme Spread: 96 FPS

The cases were Blacked up a little on the sides, indicating the load of 22.0 was a little lite. My research indicated that 23.5 was/should be Maximum with 300 MP in the 357 Maximum case. The poster said that 24.0 would loosening up the primer pockets. NOTE: I am not recommending any loads listed. Work up all loads carefully from the Minimum Loads listed in a Manual. With that out of the road I believe I will try 23.0 grains of 300 MP for my next round of 357 Maximum Case testing.
I believe I will turn up the 360 Dan Wesson load to 21.0 grains of 300 MP and see if any pressure signs show up with more that a single round fired.

I am very happy so far with my results. I think the 360 Dan Wesson Cases will work out fine. I suspect the 360 Dan Wesson 21.0 grain load under the 360-180 bullet will be about all the recoil the wife can enjoy also.
I have not worked with the 180 grain XTP's so far. I may load a few to try this afternoon if the sun comes out.

Bob

[6pt-sika]

I had a Lyman mold for a 35 cal 215 grain SWC GC, I wish I'd tried it in the Dan Wesson 357 MAX I had .

[tja6435]

Thanks for the info on the 300mp loads. I've been working with it in my .357 Max Blackhawk. I split some Jamison brass. I have 500 .360 DW brass im going to use with a custom LBT mold I had made up with a .45 nose at 200gr.

[BAGTIC]

German/Austrian 5.6x50R brass is even harder to find than .357 Maximum and usually more expensive.

A lot of .357 Max loads can be made using .357 Magnum or .360 Dan Wesson brass. The seating depth will be a little less but as long as COL is the same case capacity will be about the same.

[725]

Looking at the above boolit choices made me wonder if anyone has tried the Lyman 35 - 200 in the .357 Max. Generally regarded as a good boolit. Anybody have experience with it?

[Viper225]

I have been working with the 360 Dan Wesson Brass this last couple weeks. I have fired probably 300 rounds testing so far. I have used H110, 300 MP, as well as 1680 so far. I have worked with both the NOE 360-180 and the Hornady 180 XTP's. I have a note book full of notes I need to sort out before posting my findings.
I am ready to start working with the Jamerson 357 Maximum brass next.

Bob

[Viper225]

I loaded 60 rounds for testing tomorrow using the Jamison 357 Maximum Brass.
2 Loads of 6 rounds each were loaded in .5 grain increments from 20.5 - 21.0 grains of H110 using 180 XTP's.
Another 5 Loads of 6 rounds each were again loaded in .5 grain increments from 20.5 - 22.5 grains of H110 using NOE 360-180 cast bullets sized .358 and lubed with White Label Caranuba Red. Gas Checks are old stock Lyman I am using up.
All bullets were seated LONG in the Lower Crimp Groove. NOTE: My MGM barrel was throated for these two bullets seated long.

NOTE: The loads listed will be fired from the light loads working up in .5 grain increments. I will stop at any pressure signs, and pull the bullets.
NOTE: My H110 powder is also old stock, and may not be the same as current powder available at the store. I may buy a new can of H110 to compare with my old stock powder later in my testing.

NOTE: I am seating my 7-1/2 Remington primers using an RCBS bench mounted priming tool. So I have a very good feel of the pressure required to seat the primers.
The 357 Maximum Jamison brass does not have real tight primer pockets to start with. I can tell the ones I have fired a load or two from are getting looser. No splitting problems, but Jamison may have went the other way too much and got the brass too soft. So far all cases are still usable. The Starline 360 Dan Wesson brass is holding up much better.

I will also be firing 20 rounds of 35 Bullberry ammunition formed from Starline 38-55 brass instead of 375 Winchester tomorrow. The fire forming loads went well. I have these loaded with both H322 and OLD ORIGINAL AA 2215BR powder and NOE 360-180 cast sized .359, and lubed with White Label Caranuba Red, and Checked with Hornady Gas Checks.

One real nice thing about the NOE 360-180 Bullets. They can be sized .360, .359, or .358. That makes them way more useful if you have a barrel that is .357 and a second that is .358. Like my 357 Maximum and 35 Bullberry.

Bob

[Viper225]

My latest testing.
357 Maximum Jamison Brass.
Remington 7-1/2 Primers
Powder H110 (Unknown Age)
Bullets: NOE 360-180 Weight: 188 Grains, White Label Caranuba Red, Sized .358 Seated in Lower Crimp Groove

20.5 Grains H110
Average Velocity: 1767 SD: 64 fps

21.0 Grains H110
Average Velocity: 1869 SD: 143 fps

21.5 Grains H110
Average Velocity: 1888 SD: 63 fps

22.0 Grains H110
Average Velocity: 1976 SD: 124 fps

22.5 Grains H110
Average Velocity: 1964 SD: 25 fps

I was getting a lot more spread in velocity than I liked. The 22.5 grain load was slower than the 22.0 load. Not a lot of velocity gain between 21.0 and 21.5 either. The 21.0 grain load is probably a good place to stop at in my Contender.

357 Maximum Jamison Brass
Primers: Remington 7-1/2
Powder: H110 ( Unknown Age)
Bullets: Hornady 180 XTP seated in lower crimp groove

20.5 Grains
Average Velocity: 1851 SD: 80 fps

21.0 Grains
Average Velocity: 1823 SD: 44 fps

I was hoping for better performance from H110 than I got.
I did have some warmer loads to try, but I decided to stop and pull them down.

I believe I will work with 300 MP, 1680, and possibly AA#9 next.

Bob

[rockrat]

Try 2400 with the 180's

[P Flados]

Viper,

Your 1800 - 1900 fps from a 35 cal 180 gr is pretty good for a 13" pistol with a pistol cartridge. Is there any real reason to push for more?

I did a quick check of your max load (22.5) using my WW296 in a IHMSA head stamp max case. Found powder came to 0.5" from the top. Looking at your NOE boolit and your description of seating I estimated the bullet was seated ~0.3" down into the case. This gives about 0.2" of free space at 22.5 grs.

When I was working up IHMSA loads back in the late 80's, I did not push past 20 grs of 296 behind a 200 gr speer or 22 grs of 296 behind a speer 146 for my DW revolver. A lot of my old (IHMSA headstamp) cases have seen between 5 and 10 of these loads. Primer pockets are looser now, but I have not retired any as "worn out".

You were seating further out and your 188 boolit is a little lighter than my 200s, so a little more powder (your 21 gr "good place to stop") sounds reasonable. You may want to try seating a little deeper to see if you can improve the SD.

A 20 gr load might not be so bad (easy on the cases) if it shoots shoots good. Again I would try a little deeper just to see what happens. Even if you are worried about loosing accuracy due to boolit not where intended when the chamber was cut, you may gain some on overall accuracy if you get more uniform ignition.

If you really do want "more performance", you want a slower powder given that you still have free space. Your 1680 is the alternate you listed that I would consider "promising" for more performance. I swapped over to I4227 (just below H110/WW296 on the burn charts) as my current standard powder. I am not really pushing for more velocity, more along the lines of wanting less wear and tear on my "not cheap & easy" to replace cases.

[quilbilly]

I shot a deer last year at a measured 110 yards with a Hornady 180g XTP. The deer was angled toward me and the bullet entered just behind the front leg and exited out the rear leg on the opposite side. It was an average size deer, not a fawn. The exit hole was fairly big and the deer didn't go far. I guess using wet phone books, etc. tells you something (sort of) but it's not the same results as shooting a live animal.

You are absolutely right about not quite replicating a live deer but I use the wet phone books for establishing a true baseline for comparisons. I have used the same test on cast boolits all the way from 22 Hornet to 444 Marlin in rifles as well as in pistols. It can tell you a lot about the performance of a particular alloy as well as what the boolit will do when it enters the animal such as tumbling (one 30/30 load), expand violently (one 7mm load), or not deform at all ( a 45 load). The results are always interesting and enlightening especially if you are trying to design a load for deer versus a load for black bear or large hogs.
This is one of the great opportunities we have as casters of our own boolits.

[BAGTIC]

With the heavier (longer) bullets just seat them farther out. You might be surprised how well they can shoot.

[Tenbender]

Years ago I had a 10" 'tender barrel in 357 Maximum, it was a fire breather. But I did enjoy it. Maybe more than my 7-30 Waters... nah, that's just crazy talk.

I also have a 10" 357 Max and a 14" 7X30 contender. I think my rifles would go before I would part with the Max. I have a NOE 360-180 WFN mold that my gun likes. Before I started casting I was using Hornady 180 gr. SSP bullets. There flatter shooting but all my shots ,at game, are 100yrd's or less. Can't beat a Max for a hunting round.