30-30 shoulder setback

[Doc Highwall]

The Stoney Point tool works, without it you are just guessing with lots of trial and error. As mentioned the course thread pitch of 14 threads per inch makes adjustment critical in order to get long case life and accurate loads.
Just for ease of explaining it say the travel for one turn is rounded to .072",
1/2 turn = .036"
1/4 turn = .018"
1/8 turn = .009"
1/16 turn = .0045"
1/32 turn = ..0023"
As you can see you only need a very small amount of turning the die to make a difference in the headspace.

[HangFireW8]

Thanks, Doc. I'm going to print that out and put it somewhere near my sizing press.

[stubbicatt]

Yea, money spent of gagets is money wasted. Do as above and life will be good. Every action and chamber are different even on the same make and model. Cases should be fitted to the individual rifle and the above work just find.

Sell that useless thing on Ebay and get some of you money back. There is bound to be some sap who will buy it, thinking they can gadget and gizmo their way to reloading success. Generations of reloaders did a great job before somebody decided to market this new shiney thing as the nee plus ultra and a needful thing.

Wow, CharGar, let me guess... you smoke cigarettes, and stuff the filters in your ears for earplugs at the range, right? No sense in buying ear protection! Sell those useless ear muffs on Ebay! No sense in buying carbide dies for straight walled pistol ammunition either, is there? A micrometer? Dial caliper? Pshaw! Who needs 'em? Just use a trusty wooden yardstick, right? Indoor plumbing? Just dig a hole in the back yard. No need for toothbrush, just gouge the deposits off your teeth with a thumbnail...

Thanks to the rest of you who offered helpful advice.

Stubb, --out.

[HangFireW8]

You're welcome.

lol I think the OP just "dropped the mike".

[barrabruce]

I just partially neck size and anneal my cases every now and again.

Or use a die that just resizes the necks a minimum amount.

That and using a nice milder load and not stuffing as much powder in as you can will greatly improve your case life.
I only full length size just enough to get the case back into the chamber after it has become too well formed to the chamber after many rounds.
I haven't measured the shoulder length but it may take a few rounds for your brass to form properly anyway to your chamber.

[Doc Highwall]

Even cases that are only neck sized have to have the shoulder bumped back if they are shot enough. Being able to measure the head space of the cartridges that were fired in your gun, and comparing it to a sized case that you just re-sized, and to know for a fact how much you bumped the shoulder back is valuable information.

For a screws travel distance per one revolution, divide 1 by the thread pitch in inches.

1/14 = .0714" travel per one revolution, round to .072 to make it easy.
1/32 = .03125" travel per one revolution, round to .032 to make it easy.
1/40 = .025" which is what micrometers use.

[barrabruce]

If you divide that 72 Thou for 1 turn by 12 for clock hands then you are down to 6 thou increments.
Just saying.
If you double tap the case when sizing then you should get a more uniform set back or size allowing the brass to squeezed down more bettera

[HangFireW8]

Even cases that are only neck sized have to have the shoulder bumped back if they are shot enough. Being able to measure the head space of the cartridges that were fired in your gun, and comparing it to a sized case that you just re-sized, and to know for a fact how much you bumped the shoulder back is valuable information.

This is a key point. Often an old case will spring-back .002" to .003", but will give when pressed more than that.

If you're trying to run .001" under headspace size on a poor leverage gun (like a '94 lever), that spring-back can be a problem.

I don't have to run all my hunting loads through my rifle to know they'll fit. My instruments tell me.

[44man]

Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.

I go here. I set dies for the Marlin I have but my rounds will not close a 94 a friend has so I FL for him. No measurements or numbers.
The 30-30 will grow brass too so trimming should not be overlooked.
Just fit to the gun and toss the measuring. Even BR shooters just fit.

[HangFireW8]

Lol shoulder sizing advise from two primarily straight walled revolver shooters.

Why anyone would want to deny themselves knowledge of their guns and loads, versus a few dollars for a very versatile tool, I have no idea.

[Groo]

Groo here
+1 to 44 man
My question is , just what do you want?
Is this a target gun or a hunting gun?
If targets, OK , custom fit every thing.
If a hunting gun , for normal game OK but I think your "gilding the lilly."
If you are using for it defense against things that bite back or "other", then reliable function is required.
I full length size ALL rimed rounds to make sure of feed and function, but will custom fit rimless fit if I "need" that much accuracy.

[M-Tecs]

Why anyone would want to deny themselves knowledge of their guns and loads, versus a few dollars for a very versatile tool, I have no idea.

I have often asked myself that question. I have no answer. I guess it's because 90% of the times minimal effort and minimal knowledge works OK. Maybe it's because human nature is that if it works OK in one application it must work equally as well in all applications. I agree that following the die manufactures minimal effort and minimal knowledge adjustment procedures works OK most of the time, but it still leaves you guessing if your adjustment setting is optimal.

In 1974 at the age of 14 I purchased a TC Contender in 357 Herrett. I rapidly learned the difference between safe die adjustments (following die manufactures instructions) and optimal die adjustment. 357 Herrett brass is fair amount of work to trim and form. Safe die adjustment gave me very limited case life. Optimal die adjustment gave me very good case life. Since I was only loading for one barrel the feel method for worked well enough. When I purchased a second barrel in 357 Herrett it required different shoulder set back so I made my own gauge.

Later as a machinist/tool maker I designed and made better gauges. When I first saw Mo's gauge at Camp Perry I like that better than my design so I purchased one (RCBS later improved Mo's design). I currently use a mixture of my designs, MO's, RCBS and the Stoney Point gauges depending on application.

When I teach new reloaders getting them to understand the concepts of actual headspace and its effects and inspections methods is one of the most important aspects of understanding reloading. Not difficult at all and its even more so today when you can purchase the Hornady http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479...ith-comparator system of under $40.00.

[HangFireW8]

Groo here
+1 to 44 man
My question is , just what do you want?
Is this a target gun or a hunting gun?
If targets, OK , custom fit every thing.
If a hunting gun , for normal game OK but I think your "gilding the lilly."
If you are using for it defense against things that bite back or "other", then reliable function is required.
I full length size ALL rimed rounds to make sure of feed and function, but will custom fit rimless fit if I "need" that much accuracy.

Groo, the OP was clear about what he wanted, please read the first post. Unfortunately, people who are not equipped to answer the question, because they lack the proper equipment to know the answer, feel the need to tell the OP to move backwards in his knowledge of his guns and ammo. No, counting die turns doesn't count as knowing, because of variable springback.

Your "I full length size ALL rimed" (sic) "rounds to make sure of feed and function" is emblematic of this b'gosh and b'golly school of head-in-the-sand reloading. If you wish suffer from short case life and rude surprises when you introducing a new gun to the stable, go right ahead, but please don't foist it off on others. If you read back in the thread, the OP has already rejected the idea of giving up his equipment, and the knowledge of his guns and ammo it brings, in favor of rules of thumb.

[HangFireW8]

The 30-30 will grow brass too so trimming should not be overlooked.
Just fit to the gun and toss the measuring. Even BR shooters just fit.

30-30 won't grow so much if you stop exercising the shoulder so much, and minimally resize to a known amount.

Also, I've shot too many matches (and read too much Precision Shooting) to believe that last line. Perhaps a newbie might buy that one.

[M-Tecs]

HangFireW8 I think you will get a kick out of reading this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...35#post3567835

[HangFireW8]

HangFireW8 I think you will get a kick out of reading this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...35#post3567835

Wow.

Maybe it gets back to Gun Writers (spit) who echo the old "for hunting ammo, semi's and levers always full length resize" mantra. When the vendor sponsor is providing the rifle and ammo/brass, I guess brass life takes a back seat to a clear simple one-size-fits-all message that all writers seem to shoot for- if you follow my simple advise, all will be well.

Problem is, headspace is NOT a simple topic, and many gun writers (as has been proven) don't fully understand it. If you are willing to sacrifice brass life, ignorance is bliss.

[44man]

30-30 won't grow so much if you stop exercising the shoulder so much, and minimally resize to a known amount.

Also, I've shot too many matches (and read too much Precision Shooting) to believe that last line. Perhaps a newbie might buy that one.

You did not read me, I size just enough to chamber. A little resistance to closing the lever. I load the Marlin like a BR rifle and even turn necks for no run out. I measure length and run out but shoulders are fit by feel. Too much spring in the rear bolt lock up. Cases will grow.
The WW 94 my friend has will not close with my Marlin loads so his gun just has a different chamber.
A question for you, does the Marlin bolt have more spring then the WW bolt?

[HangFireW8]

I have both but in different calibers and my Marlins are straightwalls, so I cannot answer your question from my experience. From what I read, the Win 94 action has more springiness.

Sorry I did not read you correctly.

[John Taylor]

I don't know about springiness in a 94 but I do know that not all 94s have the same head space. The majority of 94's that come in have more head space than SAAMI specs for a no go gauge, action closes easy on the gauge. I have seen some with over .025" head space and still being shot. Strange thing is the shoulder is not pushed forward on many but the primer backs out to touch the bolt face after the firing pin pushes the cartridge all the way into the chamber. As for the camming action of the locking lug, as stated before, you would need to be very strong to close the action if the cartridge shoulder is to long. More than likely the lever would bend first. Wisner's sells thicker locking lugs for the 94 to take up head space in .005",.010" and .015" thicker. May seem strange but the Winchester may be stronger than the Marlin in the lock up. The side ejection on the marlin leaves less metal on the right side. I had one come in several years back that had broke on the right side down through the loading gate cut.
Getting back to the original question, it is always good to know where the shoulder is on bottle neck cartridges. I have check several rifle using layout die painted on the cartridge to see where things get tight. I get some people new to reloading that ask why there reloads do not fit the gun, thinking there is something wrong with the gun. Then there is the guy who has a friend in the military that brings him a bunch of once fired brass in 308 and the guy tries to reload it for his rifle and finds it won't work well, turns out it was fired in a machine gun.

[Scharfschuetze]

I would like to make this brass last a long while.

I have two old Marlins (both pre-1905) in 30/30. They both have rather excessive head space. If that is due to springy actions (I doubt it) or due to the specs they were chambered for (most likely) I don't know. What I do know is that with a good case measuring tool (Mo's are my favorite) one can tie down the issue ricky tick and load the case to the rifle for very long case life. One of the fastest ways to wear out a case and get an incipient case separation is to continually set the shoulder back while sizing and then blowing it forward again when firing. That applies to rimless, rimmed or belted cases equally.

Get the proper tools, keep good records and make good ammo. Good case life will follow along naturally. Hopefully your FL die and your chamber dimensions are close enough that you can just size and go; but you'll never know unless you can properly measure fired v. sized cases.