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Thread: 30-30 shoulder setback

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy stubbicatt's Avatar
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    30-30 shoulder setback

    Fellas. I recently purchased the insert for my Hornady (nee Stoney Point) comparator to measure the shoulder on the venerable 30-30. I haven't used it yet, as I haven't noodled my way through what I want to achieve with it yet.

    With a bolt action rifle, with Mauser style locking lugs, one strives for a .001 to .002 shoulder setback. With a semi auto, the number increases, with some suggestions at .003 to .005 shoulder setback. The litmus test being will your bolt easily close on your resized cases.

    Fast forward to the Model 94 Winchester. As I understand it, there is some springiness in the action, due to the rear locking lug arrangement, which in my view at least, suggests perhaps an approach in sizing akin to what one would use for a self loading rifle - .003 to .005" setback. The issue as I see it is, the action on my rifle in the last little bit of closing becomes rather notchy, and the locking block is beveled, so that the last ⅛" of lever travel sort of forces the locking block into battery, and forces the bolt closed, and god only knows whether the cartridge in the chamber is chambering readily or only due to the force of the action of the locking block bevel on the rear of the bolt.

    Like I said, I haven't measured any fired or sized cartridges, so I have no idea of how much shoulder growth I am experiencing, so I thought I'd throw this out there for any experiences you fellas may have BEFORE working thru this. I haven't even tried chambering "as fired" empties either. Assuming I'm getting shoulder growth on firing, anybody here opine as to what sort of setback I should strive for in resizing? I would like to make this brass last a long while.

    Thanks in advance for your consideration.

    Regards,
    Stubb.
    Last edited by stubbicatt; 05-22-2016 at 09:22 AM.
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  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master
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    +1 on what tatume said.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Yes, what has been described would work perfectly. You might want to leave a little more clearance hasat the shoulder if you are likely to use the ammunition in dusty or sandy conditions.

    But the clearance at the shoulder is quite different in effect, in the .30-30, from the rimless rounds that are really the cartridge comparator's reason for existence. In the latter they control the headspace, as in the .30-3 does the virtually unchangeable thickness of the rim. There can be a very large space at the shoulder before there is any bearing on safety, and a fairlo large one before accuracy or case life are much affected.

  5. #5
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    I size to measured length for any cartridge that has a shoulder irrespective if its belted or rimmed. For a auto/lever guns I set the shoulder for .002" to 003" clearance.

  6. #6
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    you got some serious muscle tone going on if your camming the round home with the lever.
    probably gonna bend something in the rifle.

    I pretty much do what tatume does and the rounds seem to work in all of my 30-30's just fine.
    bolt guns and lever guns both are fine with this method.

  7. #7
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    I do measure the fired headspace of the 30-30 Win and set the dies enough to set the shoulder back .002"-.003" and it works great. But you do have to make sure they chamber easily in your gun. The firing and cycling of cartridges is the litmus test along with the target group size.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    With a clean chamber and ammo I use .001 on everything except an autoloader and bolt guns. I try to use bolt guns at .0000 - yes with a little drag. This is shooting at the range.

    Were I to hunt then I would use about .002 to .003 and cycle everything through the chamber once to make sure. But I never hunt anything that is remotely dangerous.

    Just for grins you should check your chamber and record the data. Then check factory ammo. Some that I have from PPU is only .003 shorter than a 7.65 Mauser chamber.
    Other ammo may be .010 short of the chamber.
    EDG

  9. #9
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    I have the same Stoney Point tool, and just rode this horse.

    The shoulder difference between factory and once fired 30/30 was .030"!

    I had light firing pin strikes at .003" headspace, so I split the difference and left .014" headspace.... but, the problem may have been boolet jam, and I backed that off, too.

    My current plan is to prove reliability at .014" and then creep back up towards .003". So far the first batch with a .014" shoulder and minimum jam was OK. This is still a project, not a finished product. Reliability is paramount for me as this is a hunting rifle.
    I give loading advice based on my actual results in factory rifles with standard chambers, twist rates and basic accurizing.
    My goals for using cast boolits are lots of good, cheap, and reasonably accurate shooting, while avoiding overly tedious loading processes.
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  10. #10
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    I use the comparator for .300 Savage and 35 Remington, excellent tool. I wrote the comparator length on the inside cover of my die case. 30-30 and 32 Spl work just fine for me with Tatume's method. I know better than to simply adjust the sizer die down to kiss the shell holder but it's quite often what I wind up doing.
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  11. #11
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    I have up to 20 reloads on the same set of 30-30 brass, which I only shoot in one rifle. I NEVER full length resize and never worry about the shoulder. The 30-30 headspaces on the rim, and the brass slides in fine without applying leverage to the bolt (finger push is plenty). I periodically check my brass by sliding the brass into the chamber with my fingers (without closing the bolt to force it)-- if it slides in it is OK. I do the same with my 32 Winchester Special, where I have some cases that have 20+ reloads-- all neck sized only. If shoulder setback matters, my rifles don't know it.
    Hick: Iron sights!

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy stubbicatt's Avatar
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    Wow. A whole lot of different advice. I must have really poorly stated my question, or really poorly described the rifle. I am not applying a 20 ton jack to close the lever on the rifle. It closes easily with normal hand strength. The last ⅛" of closure, I see the breach block sliding its bevel over the rear of the bolt to secure it in battery. Too the little detente at the rear of the bottom plate of the action has to notch into position in the receiver, to hold everything closed. All of this happens in the last little bit of lever travel, at the point where there is the least amount of compound leverage in the cycle, and the "feel" of the thing is compromised by all of this notchiness going on.

    It is this performance which makes me wonder whether the "feel" of a cartridge in the chamber which may have a long shoulder would be diminished, as compared to a bolt actioned rifle where the closure of the bolt on a "long" cartridge is noticeable to the shooter.

    Thanks fellas. I'll strive for the .003" and see how it works. The PMA Tools lock ring should help in arriving at a consistent set back.

    Regards,
    Stubb.
    Last edited by stubbicatt; 05-23-2016 at 09:43 AM.
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  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.
    Yea, money spent of gagets is money wasted. Do as above and life will be good. Every action and chamber are different even on the same make and model. Cases should be fitted to the individual rifle and the above work just find.

    Sell that useless thing on Ebay and get some of you money back. There is bound to be some sap who will buy it, thinking they can gadget and gizmo their way to reloading success. Generations of reloaders did a great job before somebody decided to market this new shiney thing as the nee plus ultra and a needful thing.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  14. #14
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    Dies are 7/8 x 14. One revolution is .0714" so a 1/4 turn is .01785".

    Each to his own but I much prefer things adjusted to a known dimension not a guess.

    Five years ago you had a hard time selling once fired 30-30 brass. Now if you can find it a quarter a round sells very well.

    When I have a chamber reamer ground if it's a belted or rimmed case I have a custom headspace gauge ground that locates on the shoulder not the SAAMI spec. rim or belt.

    I record the actual headspace for each chamber. When loading for different chambers just set the die for the clearance you want for that chamber. Actual measurements as opposed to a guess. What a novel idea.

    I have both Hornady (Stoney Point) comparators and case mics (Mo's and RCBS). Both work but I prefer the case mic types. Either way they are one of the most useful tools I own.

    http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadin...prod33476.aspx

    The Mo's is a forerunner to RCBS. The Mo's is no longer made. I purchased a 308 at Camp Perry in the early 90's. After using it and seeing how usefully it was I purchased the 223 & 30/06.

    What all these gauges tell you are several things. First, the relative length of an unfired cartridge, and then the increased length of the fired case. With this info, and either minute sizing die adjustment (or shimming) or Redding Competition Shell holders the resized case length can be varied to fit individual chambers. Most match shooter try to fit a resized case to about .002" smaller than their chamber. This is much more difficult to do without a case micrometer or comparator.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-24-2016 at 11:09 PM.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master Tatume's Avatar
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    Each to his own but I much prefer things adjusted to a known dimension, not a guess.
    There are two basic types of measurements, direct and indirect. What you are calling a "guess" is a direct measurement. Your choice is the indirect measurement.

    Direct measurement means to compare the measured object directly to another object. If I want to drill two bolt holes through a pair of objects, I can drill one hole, put in a bolt, and use the other initial hole to locate the second hole for the other bolt.

    Indirect measurement means to compare the two objects to a third object, such as a ruler, and transfer the dimensions from one object to the other. In the example above, I could drill one hole, measure the distance needed to the other hole, make a mark and drill.

    Either way works just fine, although in the direct measurement method the distance will not be known.

    Neither is a guess.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    There are two basic types of measurements, direct and indirect. What you are calling a "guess" is a direct measurement. Your choice is the indirect measurement.

    Direct measurement means to compare the measured object directly to another object. If I want to drill two bolt holes through a pair of objects, I can drill one hole, put in a bolt, and use the other initial hole to locate the second hole for the other bolt.

    Indirect measurement means to compare the two objects to a third object, such as a ruler, and transfer the dimensions from one object to the other. In the example above, I could drill one hole, measure the distance needed to the other hole, make a mark and drill.

    Either way works just fine, although in the direct measurement method the distance will not be known.

    Neither is a guess.
    Actual no. A direct measure is measuring the part you want to measure with a rule, micrometer, tape measure etc. A good example would be measuring how much a light pole sticks out of the ground. A direct measurement would be to climb to the top and measure it with a tape measure. An indirect measurement would be to stand a measured distance away from the pole and determine the angle from the ground to the top of the pole than using trig you can calculate the actual height.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tatume View Post
    Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.
    At a 1/4 turn you can be off as much as .018".
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-23-2016 at 04:33 PM.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Oh jeeeze, a couple of engineering types slugging it out over terminology.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Oh jeeeze, a couple of engineering types slugging it out over terminology.
    You really had to see that coming...I was thinking of jumping in myself until I saw your post.

  19. #19
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    The OP asked very specific questions about his Hornady (Stoney Point) comparator and what sort of setback he should strive for in resizing. Some posters gave their opinions but didn't address any of the OP's specific questions. I don't see any place were the OP's asks if he should sell it on eBay or just crank the die until the bolt easily closes on a resized case.

    Quote Originally Posted by stubbicatt View Post
    Fellas. I recently purchased the insert for my Hornady (nee Stoney Point) comparator to measure the shoulder on the venerable 30-30. I haven't used it yet, as I haven't noodled my way through what I want to achieve with it yet.

    With a bolt action rifle, with Mauser style locking lugs, one strives for a .001 to .002 shoulder setback. With a semi auto, the number increases, with some suggestions at .003 to .005 shoulder setback. The litmus test being will your bolt easily close on your resized cases.

    Fast forward to the Model 94 Winchester. As I understand it, there is some springiness in the action, due to the rear locking lug arrangement, which in my view at least, suggests perhaps an approach in sizing akin to what one would use for a self loading rifle - .003 to .005" setback. The issue as I see it is, the action on my rifle in the last little bit of closing becomes rather notchy, and the locking block is beveled, so that the last ⅛" of lever travel sort of forces the locking block into battery, and forces the bolt closed, and god only knows whether the cartridge in the chamber is chambering readily or only due to the force of the action of the locking block bevel on the rear of the bolt.

    Like I said, I haven't measured any fired or sized cartridges, so I have no idea of how much shoulder growth I am experiencing, so I thought I'd throw this out there for any experiences you fellas may have BEFORE working thru this. I haven't even tried chambering "as fired" empties either. Assuming I'm getting shoulder growth on firing, anybody here opine as to what sort of setback I should strive for in resizing? I would like to make this brass last a long while.

    Thanks in advance for your consideration.

    Regards,
    Stubb.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-24-2016 at 04:01 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Yea, money spent of gagets is money wasted. Do as above and life will be good. Every action and chamber are different even on the same make and model. Cases should be fitted to the individual rifle and the above work just find.

    Sell that useless thing on Ebay and get some of you money back. There is bound to be some sap who will buy it, thinking they can gadget and gizmo their way to reloading success. Generations of reloaders did a great job before somebody decided to market this new shiney thing as the nee plus ultra and a needful thing.
    Really bad advice. Really, really, really bad advice. Just my opinion, you know, but REALLY BAD ADVICE.

    Without my Stoney Point case comparator, shooting my old military rifles would be like Russian Roulette. With it, as safe as any modern rifle.

    Without my Stoney Point case comparator, I would have never sorted out how to properly form cases in my custom reamer tight-necked 257 Ackley Improved 40 degree. (Talk to me first if anyone is considering an Ackley with a tight neck.)

    Without my Stoney Point case comparator, my brass life would be constantly cut short by case head separations. I know, because before I got it, they were.

    Without my Stoney Point case comparator, I wouldn't know springy brass from compliant brass, and I would think I'm making case headspace adjustments, when I'm not.

    If you want to play by-gosh and by-golly with your brass, your rifles and your eyesight, more power too you! But, not me. My case comparator comes out every time I adjust a sizing die, and it occupies a place of honor right beside the RCBS Case Master, another tool that people who suffer "the occasional flier" and shoot only 3-5 shot groups don't own.

    I know, I know, a bunch of people have reloaded for a bizillion years without either too. They also never advanced beyond a certain point in their accuracy and brass life, either.

    Just my opinion.
    Last edited by HangFireW8; 05-23-2016 at 11:31 PM.
    I give loading advice based on my actual results in factory rifles with standard chambers, twist rates and basic accurizing.
    My goals for using cast boolits are lots of good, cheap, and reasonably accurate shooting, while avoiding overly tedious loading processes.
    The BHN Deformation Formula, and why I don't use it.
    How to find and fix sizing die eccentricity problems.
    Do you trust your casting thermometer?
    A few musings.

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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
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