44-40 vs 45colt rifle pistol combo?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

For the sake of this thread let's assume I don't cast or load for either 44-40 (WCF) or the 45colt (LC). If you had to start from scratch and buy molds, brass, dies, a rifle/carbine, and a pistol to share a common caliber for black powder shooting which caliber would you choose?

I understand that the 44-40 was an authentic combo in both the Winchester and Colt 1873 and that has a lot of appeal to me. I also hear that the 44-40 is a cleaner round do to the better seal the thin brass offers.

The main appeal I have for the 45colt is how readily available both components and firearms are. Being a practical man, I am willing to over look historical accuracy if there is not any real difference between the two.

When it comes to shooting black powder does the 44-40 have any significant advantage over the 45colt?

[Don McDowell]

Dodge v Chrysler...

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Both are nostalgic, and both are good. I shoot both. But given your criteria I would go for the .45 Colt because it's usually easier to find the brass and it's easier to reload than is the .44-40.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Both are nostalgic, and both are good. I shoot both. But given your criteria I would go for the .45 Colt because it's usually easier to find the brass and it's easier to reload than is the .44-40.

Out of curiosity, what makes the 45 easier to reload?

[shoot-n-lead]

Out of curiosity, what makes the 45 easier to reload?

For one thing, it is not a bottleneck cartridge like the 44-40 is.

[Don McDowell]

The only "bottleneck" cartridge I find any more difficult to load than the rest of them is the 32-20, and that's just because the neck wall thickness is pretty thin and it's easier to bugger up those cases during the loading process.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I was under the impression both the 44-40 and 45colt are slightly tapered cartridges.

[shoot-n-lead]

Well, at a minimum, it is not like the colt.

[Outpost75]

Most problems which modern shooters experience with the .44-40 are caused by the lingering effects of black powder-era design practices, dimensions and tolerances. Lyman’s standard bullet for the .44-40 #42798 copies typical traditional .44-40 lead bullets. It has two lubricating grooves which hold a generous amount of lubricant, needed to keep black powder fouling soft. It weighs 217 grains if cast in pure lead or about 215 grains in 1:40. Cast bullets of the black powder era did not require a crimp groove, because a compressed case full of black powder prevented bullets from telescoping into the case under magazine spring compression. Crimping the case mouth over the ogive was sufficient to prevent inertial dislodgement in revolvers, because .44-40 loads have milder recoil than their modern, smokeless powder, magnum counterparts.

In the .44-40 loading bullets heavier than about 230 grains, the base is below the neck, into the powder space, if cartridges are kept at a length to feed in magazine rifles. If smokeless powder is used, bullets require a crimp groove to resist their being telescoped back into the case, under compression of the magazine spring. Accurate bullets 43-215C, 43-230G and 43-230EB have substantial crimp grooves, while also having adequate lubricant capacity to prevent foul-out in rifles if black powder is used. A compressed caseful, about 24-26 grains of RL7, depending upon bullet, or 20-22 grains of 4198, provide adequate base support to the bullet in the same manner as black powder does, producing full-charge blackpowder ballistics within standard pressures which are safe in the 1873 Winchester and modern clones, and may also be used in revolvers, giving results identical to pre WW2 smokeless loads assembled with Sharpshooter powder.

My S&W Model 544 Texas Commemorative revolver has .4285 cylinder throats and .429 barrel groove diameter and is very accurate with either factory jacketed .44-40 loads, or handloads using SOFT 8-10 BHN bullets of .429 diameter. Mine is in 5" length and is very accurate with Accurate 43-230G with 24.5 grains of RL7. Severely undersized factory .425-.427” bullets being shot in throats and chambers cut for .430 or larger .44 Magnum projectiles, is a recipe for poor accuracy.

Pre-WW2 .44-40 revolvers having groove diameters of .424-.427” require chambers cut to Min. SAAMI dimensions for use with .427-.428" bullets, with cylinder throats not exceeding .4285”. My Ruger Vaquero as purchased had excessively tight chambers with .444 neck diameter and .425" cylinder throats which precluded loading bullets large enough to fit its .429" groove diameter. The fix was to have John Taylor rechamber the cylinder, enlarging the chamber necks to .447 and the cylinder throats to .4305" so that I could load .430" bullets in Starline brass, which has 0.007” mouth wall thickness, and holds up very well to repeated reloading with ‘92 Winchester style .44-40 +P loads.“

Modern factory 200-grain soft point smokeless loads have a deep cannelure at the case / bullet base juncture to support the bullet base, having a case neck length of about .33 " Winchester and Magtech Cowboy loads have a longer neck to support the 225-grain bullet then-used, whereas Winchester component brass has the common .33” SAAMI neck with rolled cannelure at the base of the bullet.

John Kort has recommended that case necks be sized .03" longer than bullet seating depth to give needed base support in addition to the crimp. This is consistent with industry practice in loading lead bullet ammunition in other calibers, such as the .38 Special, and is necessary when using smokeless powder due to increased free airspace in the case. The common .33" SAAMI length neck in the .44-40 does not work well with smokeless powder when loading “historically correct” black powder bullets, such as #427098, which lack a crimp groove, requiring that they be crimped over the ogive or front band, if the bullet has one. This is because the unsupported bullet base yields under magazine spring compression, increasing seating depth, which can cause a steep pressure rise with fast-burning smokeless pistol powders!

An effective expedient, recommended by Kort, and with which I agree, is to grind .10" off the base of the sizing die, to allow the case neck to be set back up to .40," to allow use of heavier bullets for hunting purposes, ensuring adequate base support. Sizing can then be adjusted as required for the particular bullet. Having this capability is also necessary when loading .44 Speer shot capsules in .44-40 cases, because the base plug-obturator, requires internal support from the case wall to prevent its being dislodged, to prevent spilling shot into the powder space.

The Lee Factory Crimp collet die has recommended to provide a suitably strong crimp for lever-action rifles. The Lee FCD sizes the cartridge neck to 0.001” less than SAAMI Max. cartridge dimensions, which will size bullets over .429” by compression inside the case when loaded in Starline brass. If your .44-40 rifle or revolver requires bullets larger than .429" to fit an oversized barrel, then it is necessary to hone the neck sizing collar of the Factory Crimp Die to a diameter of .446" to avoid sizing bullets inside the case. The LFC die will also cold-form a crimp groove onto bullet to hold them in place when the chosen bullet has none.

Current bullet designs favored by Cowboy Action Shooters are variants of the traditional Ideal #42798 or as it is called now by Lyman 427098. Accurate’s 43-220C is 427098 with a crimp groove added: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=43-220C-D.png Accurate’s 43-215C resembles 427098 with additional lube capacity for use with GOEX and other “more fouling black powders” – plus a crimp groove: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=43-215C-D.png Most commercial .44-40 Cowboy loads assembled using cast bullets the Magma Engineering bullet which has a crimp groove. Desperado bullets offers this bullet in a soft alloy with flat base, which SASS shooters feel is superior: http://www.cowboybullets.com/44-cal-200-grain_p_21.html

Fast powders help to upset undersized bullets. Trail Boss appears to have a quicker pressure rise than even black powder. John Kort found when testing different brands of Cowboy ammunition, that Hornady Cowboy ammo assembled a swaged 200 gr RNFP bullet produced throat leading in his Marlin ’94 Cowboy rifle. Pulled bullets measured .424” on the body and as small as .421” at the base, apparently being reduced from their original .427” diameter during the loading process. No wonder they leaded in his .4285” groove! Kort reloaded the Hornady bullets over 6.5/Trail Boss, and got no more throat leading, with much better groups. Lesson learned.

Another factor with .44-40 brass is that all of it is thin walled and fragile. If you are not careful and deliberate in case sizing, mouth expansion and separately seating and crimping bullets, the ham-handed novice will wreck a great many cases until one learns to slow down and pay attention. Loading the .44-40 for good results is not a task for the novice.

The .45 Colt is MUCH easier to load.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Most problems which modern shooters experience with the .44-40 are caused by the lingering effects of black powder-era design practices, dimensions and tolerances. Lyman’s standard bullet for the .44-40 #42798 copies typical traditional .44-40 lead bullets. It has two lubricating grooves which hold a generous amount of lubricant, needed to keep black powder fouling soft. It weighs 217 grains if cast in pure lead or about 215 grains in 1:40. Cast bullets of the black powder era did not require a crimp groove, because a compressed case full of black powder prevented bullets from telescoping into the case under magazine spring compression. Crimping the case mouth over the ogive was sufficient to prevent inertial dislodgement in revolvers, because .44-40 loads have milder recoil than their modern, smokeless powder, magnum counterparts.

In the .44-40 loading bullets heavier than about 230 grains, the base is below the neck, into the powder space, if cartridges are kept at a length to feed in magazine rifles. If smokeless powder is used, bullets require a crimp groove to resist their being telescoped back into the case, under compression of the magazine spring. Accurate bullets 43-215C, 43-230G and 43-230EB have substantial crimp grooves, while also having adequate lubricant capacity to prevent foul-out in rifles if black powder is used. A compressed caseful, about 24-26 grains of RL7, depending upon bullet, or 20-22 grains of 4198, provide adequate base support to the bullet in the same manner as black powder does, producing full-charge blackpowder ballistics within standard pressures which are safe in the 1873 Winchester and modern clones, and may also be used in revolvers, giving results identical to pre WW2 smokeless loads assembled with Sharpshooter powder.

My S&W Model 544 Texas Commemorative revolver has .4285 cylinder throats and .429 barrel groove diameter and is very accurate with either factory jacketed .44-40 loads, or handloads using SOFT 8-10 BHN bullets of .429 diameter. Mine is in 5" length and is very accurate with Accurate 43-230G with 24.5 grains of RL7. Severely undersized factory .425-.427” bullets being shot in throats and chambers cut for .430 or larger .44 Magnum projectiles, is a recipe for poor accuracy.

Pre-WW2 .44-40 revolvers having groove diameters of .424-.427” require chambers cut to Min. SAAMI dimensions for use with .427-.428" bullets, with cylinder throats not exceeding .4285”. My Ruger Vaquero as purchased had excessively tight chambers with .444 neck diameter and .425" cylinder throats which precluded loading bullets large enough to fit its .429" groove diameter. The fix was to have John Taylor rechamber the cylinder, enlarging the chamber necks to .447 and the cylinder throats to .4305" so that I could load .430" bullets in Starline brass, which has 0.007” mouth wall thickness, and holds up very well to repeated reloading with ‘92 Winchester style .44-40 +P loads.“

Modern factory 200-grain soft point smokeless loads have a deep cannelure at the case / bullet base juncture to support the bullet base, having a case neck length of about .33 " Winchester and Magtech Cowboy loads have a longer neck to support the 225-grain bullet then-used, whereas Winchester component brass has the common .33” SAAMI neck with rolled cannelure at the base of the bullet.

John Kort has recommended that case necks be sized .03" longer than bullet seating depth to give needed base support in addition to the crimp. This is consistent with industry practice in loading lead bullet ammunition in other calibers, such as the .38 Special, and is necessary when using smokeless powder due to increased free airspace in the case. The common .33" SAAMI length neck in the .44-40 does not work well with smokeless powder when loading “historically correct” black powder bullets, such as #427098, which lack a crimp groove, requiring that they be crimped over the ogive or front band, if the bullet has one. This is because the unsupported bullet base yields under magazine spring compression, increasing seating depth, which can cause a steep pressure rise with fast-burning smokeless pistol powders!

An effective expedient, recommended by Kort, and with which I agree, is to grind .10" off the base of the sizing die, to allow the case neck to be set back up to .40," to allow use of heavier bullets for hunting purposes, ensuring adequate base support. Sizing can then be adjusted as required for the particular bullet. Having this capability is also necessary when loading .44 Speer shot capsules in .44-40 cases, because the base plug-obturator, requires internal support from the case wall to prevent its being dislodged, to prevent spilling shot into the powder space.

The Lee Factory Crimp collet die has recommended to provide a suitably strong crimp for lever-action rifles. The Lee FCD sizes the cartridge neck to 0.001” less than SAAMI Max. cartridge dimensions, which will size bullets over .429” by compression inside the case when loaded in Starline brass. If your .44-40 rifle or revolver requires bullets larger than .429" to fit an oversized barrel, then it is necessary to hone the neck sizing collar of the Factory Crimp Die to a diameter of .446" to avoid sizing bullets inside the case. The LFC die will also cold-form a crimp groove onto bullet to hold them in place when the chosen bullet has none.

Current bullet designs favored by Cowboy Action Shooters are variants of the traditional Ideal #42798 or as it is called now by Lyman 427098. Accurate’s 43-220C is 427098 with a crimp groove added: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=43-220C-D.png Accurate’s 43-215C resembles 427098 with additional lube capacity for use with GOEX and other “more fouling black powders” – plus a crimp groove: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=43-215C-D.png Most commercial .44-40 Cowboy loads assembled using cast bullets the Magma Engineering bullet which has a crimp groove. Desperado bullets offers this bullet in a soft alloy with flat base, which SASS shooters feel is superior: http://www.cowboybullets.com/44-cal-200-grain_p_21.html

Fast powders help to upset undersized bullets. Trail Boss appears to have a quicker pressure rise than even black powder. John Kort found when testing different brands of Cowboy ammunition, that Hornady Cowboy ammo assembled a swaged 200 gr RNFP bullet produced throat leading in his Marlin ’94 Cowboy rifle. Pulled bullets measured .424” on the body and as small as .421” at the base, apparently being reduced from their original .427” diameter during the loading process. No wonder they leaded in his .4285” groove! Kort reloaded the Hornady bullets over 6.5/Trail Boss, and got no more throat leading, with much better groups. Lesson learned.

Another factor with .44-40 brass is that all of it is thin walled and fragile. If you are not careful and deliberate in case sizing, mouth expansion and separately seating and crimping bullets, the ham-handed novice will wreck a great many cases until one learns to slow down and pay attention. Loading the .44-40 for good results is not a task for the novice.

The .45 Colt is MUCH easier to load.

Really appreciate that information. All that being said, do you prefer the 44-40 over the 45 for shooting black powder?

[Outpost75]

Really appreciate that information. All that being said, do you prefer the 44-40 over the 45 for shooting black powder?

I think the .44-40 is a better rifle round, but .45 Colt has more potential in a revolver. If you want to shoot black in both rifle and revolver of the same caliber, toss a coin...

[M-Tecs]

Solely for black I prefer the 44-40 but for a combo I prefer the 45 Colt. Both work well for black. With the Colt and black you may have to anneal necks to get a good seal. For leverguns the 44-40 feeds slightly better.

Carbide dies and a more robust case makes loading the Colt easier.

[sharpsguy]

The 45 Colt with a 250 grain Keith style bullet is a better killer. BTDT with both cartridges, I have an iron frame Henry in 44-40 and a 1894 Marlin in 45 Colt. Both are very accurate, capable of cutting edgewise playing cards at 25 yards, and I have killed crows at 200 yards with the Henry. The Colt shoots all the way through things, the 44-40, not so much.

The above post about reloading the 44-40 is spot on, BTW.

[Lead pot]

I like both the .44-40 and the .45 Colt. The only thing I have against the .45 Colt id the thin and narrow rim flange. It can be a problem in a repeating rifle also in the shell holder when resizing the case.
I have tore the rim off several times

[Don McDowell]

I have some older WW 45 colt cases that have a tendency to jump out of the RCBS universal hand primer tool if the primers are a bit tight.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I like both the .44-40 and the .45 Colt. The only thing I have against the .45 Colt id the thin and narrow rim flange. It can be a problem in a repeating rifle also in the shell holder when resizing the case.
I have tore the rim off several times

I believe the rim problem was the reason Colt was not successful with it's Lightning model. My experience with both cartridges is, Colt 45 cases lasted longer.

[EDG]

The straight wall .45 Colt will never feed as well as the necked .44-40. Being straight walled the .45 Colt can be sized with a carbide die and is easier to load especially if you like heavy bullets. The 45 Colt seems to have a lot more gas blow by from the low pressures too.

[bigted]

i believe this to be a fact with which ever chamber you use. for accuracy and case longevity it is paramount that both the revolver and the rifle have the same chamber dimensions and bore measurements.

now if you are going to swap the cartridges with either firearm and value the performance then the above is best followed ... however lets say that if your only accuracy requirement is going to be the rifle lets say ... then this is what i would load for and also use them in the revolver.

getting a good combo of revolver/rifle with the same requirements is going to be tuff to say the least and prolly expensive in the broad sense.

witch is best??? i love the 45 Colt as this is all i have ever fooled with and have done so for about 50 years ... however just the last 10 or so with the blackpowder loads. i love almost everything about the old Colt round and if i ever venture into the 44WCF then it will need to be a bit better then all i read and hear about the loading of the 44. the old Colt 45 however will stand toe to toe with any round except for the very newest Magnum numbers and even then i would bet dead meat to dead meat that the old 1873 45Colt will bring down just the same as any other new comers. i can not say this about the 44WCF but im bettin that there will be some that will vouch for its performance just as i do with and about the old Colt round.

[Washington1331]

In all reality, it comes down to what you want. Do you want a 44 or a 45? Both have their advantages. Both has some draw backs as described in others posts. It all comes down to preference.

I have never had a 44-40. I've had several friends that loved them and several friends who seemingly loved to swear at them. The swears were mainly due to the thin brass, and at the time the cost of each brass piece.

I've shot a lot of 45 Colt. It's easy to reload, the brass is tough, and when you load it full bore (with a full case of 3FG black powder), you'll understand why the government reduced the load of powder. From my understanding Colt was rather stingy in allowing other companies use of their proprietary round. Thus the examples antique lever guns chambered in 45 colt are few and far between. The current surge in 45 Colt lever guns is mainly due to increased demand from CAS. Or so I've heard.

Bottom line is they are both fine cartridges in their own right. The choice luckily remains yours... or you could just make it easy on yourself and get a pair of each.

[Bouv]

For CAS I use a 1860 Henry in .44-40 and 2 Remington NMA 1858 Conversion in .45 Colt. The. 44-40 is my favorite caliber for shooting holy black in a lever action! Yes it is a bit more difficult to reload than straight wall cases as the. 45 Colt, but it seals the chamber perfect!
IMHO the best choice for black powder! And the .45 Colt is the choice for revolvers, also IMHO! I like both cartridges!
Just my 2 cents' worth.