Physical healing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[jcwit]

Another branch out started by a man by the name of John Calvin. He was a successor to Martin Luther.

I'm guessing in his mind Luther didn't go far enough.

[jcwit]

Now is it possible for this thread to get back on track as to what the OP ment it to be?

[Blackwater]

Good suggestion, JC. And anyone who is so blind as to not see healing when it's right there in front of them, is clearly being willful and NOT using their powers of observation and analysis. It doesn't happen every day in our lives, but it DOES happen somewhere to someone every day. How could a truly loving God NOT behave in this manner? On the 7th day, it's said He rested, but it does NOT say he fell asleep! He still works, just not quite as hard as He did in the first 6. Mostly, I think He was right to leave this world mostly up to us. After all, He gave us all we really NEED to make things "right." We simply choose wrong, often in the full knowledge of what we're doing. Sort of an "I don't care, I'm gonna' do it anyway" sort of thing. And we've all done this. Some just try to base their whole lives and attitudes on it. Most simply don't take it quite that far.

So to those who'd deny that miracles DO indeed occur, all I can really do, in the end, is turn that question around and ask THEM, "How could they NOT?" Not many of them expect this, and not one I've ever met can answer this one. Kind'a puts their attitude and perspective in better focus, doesn't it?

[Clay M]

I don't normally do this , but felt impressed by God's Spirit .
I am doing this as an encouragement for many who have lost loved ones or are struggling with a Spiritual problem.

We live in both a physical and a spiritual world.
Remember Jesus said, " My kingdom is not of this realm"

I believe it is clear the physical healings Jesus did throughout his ministry here on earth were to point the way to God.

Do I believe miracles can occur today? I believe they can but is i not the norm.

I do however believe that spiritual healings occur all the time.
People can definitely be healed for drug addiction, alcoholism, pornography addiction, gluttony and
hatred of other people, just to name a few.

I don't believe an any special incantations, but I do believe in a genuine faith in Christ, and the desire to change ones life.

The Kingdom of God is here around us as well as in the eschatological future.

Most all of us have a sickness of one form or another,and Christ can bring about healing and change.

I love the Sermon on the Mount. I would have to say that is my favorite scripture.

My wife and I have a dear friend who is a devoted Christian.
She was recently diagnosed with Breast cancer, and had a double mastectomy .
They she learned the cancer had already spread and has to take Chemo therapy.

He sprit is still strong. The cancer was unable to affect that.
Will she live, who knows.

We all live and we all die, it is a fact of life.
If Jesus healed all physical ailment, we would all live forever here on earth,
the medical profession would be out of business, and all the churches would always be full.

Keep the faith, and be strong in spirit. If your spirit is sick,then work hard with Jesus help to
to make it well again.

Remember Jesus said, " My Kingdom is not of this Realm",and neither is yours..

All the best with love,
Clay M

I believe I feel Christ calling me back to do my work, but I need more time to heal first.

[jcwit]

By Golly Clay I like and agree with all that you posted, How Bout That!!!!!

One thing we all forget "usually" is to ask for God's will be done, not necessarily ours.

As they would say in England "I guess" Good show chap!

[Blackwater]

I absolutely respect your view, Clay, but my own experience just simply differs from yours, and I DO believe in them. Sometimes I suspect that it's just our attitudes and beliefs that sometimes keeps us from seeing things that do occur around us. Many agnostics and atheists, for instance, think belief in miracles of healing here and now is just a "mind game" some of us believers play with ourselves. But it's honestly not.

What we see, and how we interpret it, are two separate issues. It's certainly true that two honest and well meaning and faithful people can see the same circumstance, and interpret it differently. Who is right? We'll probably never know until this life is behind us, at least for sure. But in my own time, I've seen some things that absolutely defy all reason and logic, and they've stumped and actually kind'a startled the doctors, too.

So I have no problem with your not believing in miracles. I think God gave us our mental abilities and propensity for observation and analysis after finding questions for us to ask, to advance our sciences and understanding of the world around us, and to help us use what He gave us for our health and maintenance and sustenance, and also to provide a measure of happiness and satisfaction for ourselves. And I think He expects us to USE these things to our benefit to the full extent of their capabilities.

I also, however, reserve the right to do as He obviously instructed us to do, and simply ASK for a miracle when we really truly want and need one. Whether He answers it as we ask Him is up to Him, and sometimes he simply says "No" to us, and we have to accept that. Acceptance shouldn't be all that terribly difficult, though, when we realize that He sees and knows far further and more than we can, and knows much more what is truly best for us in the long run. He made us as He did for reasons, and I suspect He did so for many reasons we can't possibly understand here in this finite and tangible world. He exists on planes we can't know and don't even have much of a real clue about, far above the plane we live on.

I believe His words when he told us to pray and He would hear in Heaven, and would answer our prayers. He did NOT say he'd grant us every request. Parents get asked all sorts of things by their children, but they have to deny many of those requests. I think it's very much the same with God and us, his children in this realm. I agree with you that when He says "No," and lets things proceed without a miracle, that we simply just have to accept those things in good and reasonable faith that He really does know best. But sometimes, I believe to the bottom of my heart and the center of the marrow in my bones, that miracles really DO occur today, in our world, and that they are really not terribly uncommon. I do NOT believe they are granted willy nilly every time we ask. We have our wants and desires, and God has his reasons for granting or rejecting our pleas.

I think all we have here is an honest and earnest difference in opinion and experience, and maybe a little bit of difference in attitude. What else could be more common and expected among believers that these? We'll never all sing off the exact same sheet of music until we all agree to the same song, and that just isn't in the cards, it seems, even among us Christians. We're STILL human, after all, and each one's experience differs from all others. How cold we NOT come to disagree on some things, and yet agree on others???

But it doesn't have to be a disagreeable disagreement, and your post seems to be honest and earnest enough for me to take it seriously and honestly. Thanks. We can never learn anything from those who agree with us on everything, and don't HAVE to disagree disagreeably, either. Personally, I thank you for your honesty and input. As long as a person has real faith, I have no problem with their expressing their dissent here at all, and I doubt anyone else here does either. You've paid me a high honor by disagreeing with me and stating your case honestly and without any sort of hedging. I really respect that. It's only those interloper who have no faith who I believe have no place here, and I know from many of your posts over time that you're a man of real faith.

In my book, you're one of the "good guys," and I'm grateful for you. That we disagree on a point in contention is no big surprise, or shouldn't be, and it's certainly no reason for us to quarrel over it. Those who come looking for a quarrel, I'm willing to do battle with on any field they choose. But among us Christians, there is no reason to quarrel over simple disagreements in interpretation. And I think we were cautioned to not do that, weren't we? But admonished to seek answers and "study to show thyself approved." So I'm perfectly ambivalent that you'd disagree with me and others here. No biggie here on my part. It's just something that's naturally going to occur when we discuss among ourselves. And I'm good with that.

[jcwit]

Blackwater, wondering what it is you do not agree with Clay on? Just wondering, I thought it was an excellent post.

Mayhap I'm missing something.

[Clay M]

A lot of what I believe in has to do with eschatology and the Sovereignty of God.
probably my training in the years at at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.

I had some very excellent teachers, but most were indeed Calvinists.

Believe me I use to be very Armenian , it took me many years of study to become a full blown Calvanist.

No matter to me,as I have said I don't have a corner on knowledge.
I am only drawing from many years of training and experience.

What works for you suits me fine.

I only hope God will grant me the time and physical ability to sever once again.
Ministry can be very taxing and draining..

I feel people drawing off of my spiritual energy.
I am usually spent after a sermon.

[Pine Baron]

Oh great now I have to look up "eschatology".
It's tough being a simple man with a simple faith. Took me a long time to get here and I'm not done yet.

[jcwit]

Oh great now I have to look up "eschatology".
It's tough being a simple man with a simple faith. Took me a long time to get here and I'm not done yet.

Hehehe, did that last night.

[Blackwater]

Only thing I'd disagree with you on, Clay, is the prevalence of miracles. I think they happen more often than you seem to. No problem here with someone seeing it diffferently than I have, though. This is one of those areas where we might all learn something form other devout believers, I think? With faith so tested and tentative in so many today, it's probably be no big mystery why miracles might be scarce, and might vary from area to area in our world. I've been very much blessed to be raised among pretty simple but productive and inquisitive people, of real faith, and devout convictions. Mine wasn't always so strong as it has become, but I paid attention along the way and got to be part of and see some really mysterious things that nobody can really explain, like the old preacher who stopped the blood leakage in my wife's grandad. And at the time, I could feel "something," and didn't realize fully just what it was. Was it the Holy Spirit at work, doing a miracle? I can't certify that, but I believe it was. Could I be wrong? Sure, but I don't think so. It could be argued from now to doomsday, and no resolution would be sure to come of it. We just see what we see and notice what we notice and explain it as best we can. Have I been privy to more than my share of these "miracles?" Could be. Why? I don't have the foggiest! All I know is what I've seen and experienced, and I'll relate at least some of that when asked, or asked to support my views. That's really all I CAN do. But have a problem with others in the matter? Not unless they're just trying to promote un-belief. Among believers, this is the kind of subject that'll probably always vary from person to person based on the differences in our experience, and I have no real problem with that. Why does God allow such discrepancies? I don't know. All I know is, like I said, what I've seen, and how I felt, and how I think I've reasonably interpreted all of it. That others may see differently is, I think, a given.

For that matter, I don't think any 2 Christians really think exactly alike in all issues of our faith. We're all on a different point on the learning curve we all have to walk through to get to where we want to be one day. If I lived to be 150 I STILL wouldn't have it all figured out, I think. Probably not by a long shot.

This is why it's so good and necessary for us all to discuss the serious issues amongst ourselves. How could it NOT be edifying, in the long run if not always in the short?

[ga41]

as someone who has known Clay for over 40 years, I will say that I know a bit about Clay's family and the health struggles and the spiritual journey. I've been on the Calvinist ( read God is in control ) side for my entire life. No one I would rather have " in the foxhole" with me than Clay M.

My nephew suffered a battle with Ewing's sarcoma for over 4 years. It's a rare form of bone cancer that usually attacks younger children and is usually fatal. Sam was first diagnosed at age 20 and it was first felt it couldn't be Ewing's due to his age. Sam was an awesome happy young man, a good man...as good as we can be on this earth. He and Mom and Dad had a great relationship. He was a triathlete and a winning smile who was loved and loved everyone. And then ....cancer... The week he was diagnosed, he had planned to ask his girlfriend to marry him that weekend.... He decided not to quit and they got engaged as planned ( I found out later the doctor felt he had a 15% chance to make 12 months). Over the years he made many trips to MD Anderson and Emory Hospital. He and Abby got married on a beautiful summer evening in Atlanta. They were fighters, we were prayer warriors. His grandfather on his Mom's side a God fearing Baptist minister and a wonderful mentor in the wood working world to me...Alas time went by and Sam began to slip and we knew it was going to end mercifully for Sam, Sam missed Thanksgiving in 2010, then Christmas we were told he was much worse. Sam was an Auburn graduate and Auburn was fighting for the national Championship, furthermore, his Dad, my brother's birthday was 1/12. Sam lived to see both one more time. The night he passed, his Mom and he sang hymns of praise... I can't imagine... At the funeral, when I walked up and hugged my brother and told him how sorry I was. His reflection and wisdom spoke loudly, his words as best I can remember( he is a lawyer) " I had a gift many rarely get, many times I get calls from friends who have had their children ripped from their lives in an instant without a chance to say goodby...... I had over 4 years to show my son love and say goodby" Friends , don't ever miss a chance to make a memory.
My wife and I lost a grandson at 9 months suddenly from SIDS....sometimes the answers elude,.My only thought , God knows the very dark future and some don't need to have go through it
Sometimes God's ways are not our ways
John chap 17 says it all

[Blackwater]

What a poignant story, Ga41. Thanks.