swedish mauser incident at the range yesterday

[DougGuy]

Hey DougGuy ,I,ve read your post a few times and am confused.17 grains of 4759 is 1.6 cc.s or thereabouts so 1,9 cc,s of COW is being used to fill the case,and that ratio is trouble looking for an outlet!Apologies if I missed your point but those(my) figures are way out of line.I personally use grits in nothing smaller than 7mm and then only after care working up my loads with slower powders and hence less volume of filler. Be safe,Cheers,Mike

Actually I should have clarified that I was just using the volumetric figure I used as an example, and it should have been noted that the figure used does not accurately reflect actual volume of powder, I was just using those figures to show an example of how the reduction of the dynamic volume could be figured out before the load is assembled.

Grits, COW, any solid used as a filler will reduce case volume, so yes you approached it in the correct manner afaict.

[hardy]

DougGuy,Gotcha loud and clear.Cheers,Mike

[Don Fischer]

I have never understood the using of COW as a filler. I do use 1/4 sheet of TP in my 30-06 when using Red Dot. All it's for is to keep the powder at the flash hole. If I was blowing out case's, I just load a mild enough load to get the job done.

[leadman]

I use alot of 4759 and and have found no need for a filler with it. I do use COW in fireforming cases with no projectile in bottlenecked cases. I use polyfil in some cases as a filler but one has to back the powder charge down and work back up when adding a filler to an existing load.
I also weigh each powder charge, especially when using 4759 as it will bridge in the powder measure.
Glad you were not hurt.

[gnoahhh]

I have never understood the using of COW as a filler. I do use 1/4 sheet of TP in my 30-06 when using Red Dot. All it's for is to keep the powder at the flash hole. If I was blowing out case's, I just load a mild enough load to get the job done.

Have you ringed any chambers yet with that approach? 1/4 sheet of tp tamped in tight enough to secure the powder at the base of the case is in effect a secondary projectile inside the case, and when it contacts the base of the bullet it stops for "a second" with pressure building up behind it. Result, sooner or later: an unsightly ring in the chamber. Don't believe me? Research the phenomenon. A filler needs to be light and fluffy and take up all the air space, not leave air space exposed between it and the bullet. That's why pillow stuffing and the old standby kapok excels at the task.

While I concede the efficacy of filler use, in some circumstances, I shy away from their use.

[danyboy]

Please, please, please DO NOT do this sort of thing again. You are lucky to be alive and thank goodness for strong bolt actions.

For sure, I will not do it again in bottleneck cases. I since used tiny bit of cotton puff against the powder for my Mauser 43 pet loads as I have been for decades without any issue but the COW in the Swedish mauser was the first and last time. COW is convenient and safe for fireforming without a bullet .

[robg]

I don't use fillers in any loads ,if your worried about powder position tip the barrel up between shots.I use shooting glasses too ,they did their job OK.

[Char-Gar]

Cream of Wheat cereal will compress into a near-solid mass under pressure. The 6.5X55 Swede is a very bottle-necked case where the COW may not "flow" through the shoulder area and can compress into a solid plug. Pressures can go through the roof causing what you have experienced. COW is GREAT in straight wall or tapered cases, but can and will give problems in bottle necked cases. If you need a filler to keep the SR4759 at the rear of the case, use dacron fluff or Spherical plastic shot buffer. Both of these work without raising chamber pressures on the Swede except a little bit as they flow easily into the bore. I have had similar extreme high pressures using "Puff-lon" filler in the swede and not use powders like Alliant 2400 or IMR 4198/3031 or 4895 instead of relying on fillers to get a clean burn,

Bingo...we have A winner!

[HangFireW8]

Bingo...we have A winner!

Not really. CoW can ring chambers in straight walled cases, and has, which is not what I would call "great". The rest of the post is good.

[gwpercle]

One thing I did that I had never done before with this caliber and petload was using COW filler. Now, would this cause the pressure to go high enough to have something like this happen, could be. I usually do it for pet loads in larger cases and won't ever do it again with the Swedish. Also, perhaps my brass was overused. I will head up to my gunsmith and see what solution he has for me.
Thanks to all for your ideas. Will follow up on this.

Unfortunately ...yes. Fillers in bottle neck cartridges , in my opinion, are to be avoided. And what has happened in your case tends to reinforce that thought. Lots of fellows will say they have done it for 40 years with nary a problem....then this happens. Proven load, except for COW filler, and oops .

Sorry about your rifle but thank the Lord you are not hurt. You can can get another rifle , hard to get another you or new body parts.
Gary

[GONRA]

GONRA sez read Char-Gar for a great exlaination of wots going on.
BUT - any fluffy filler can do this. Dacron etc, too - NOT just COW.
(Personal 7.62x54R Russian experience decades ago...)
Jurt have to use too much. (Whatever THAT is.)

[Buckshot]

Double charge of 4227 under a Lyman 311284 in a low number 1903 NRA sporter.


Boltface. You can see the metal that was blown or broken off by the high pressure gas.



Bottom of the receiver and lug recess. Pictures I took, but which didn't come out were of the lug setback on the receiver, and where the 3rd "safety" lug setback into the rear bridge.

In case anyone is interested the slug tripped the PACT chronograph at 3018 fps.

................Buckshot

[swheeler]

In case anyone is interested the slug tripped the PACT chronograph at 3018 fps.

................Buckshot

Geeeesus, if you wanted a 300 Ultra Mag you should've bought one!

[Dutchman]

Scrap the receiver.


Dutch

[izzyjoe]

I agree with Dutchman, hang on the wall in the back of the shop, and from time to time look at it and be thankful that you were not injured!

[Tar Heel]

Assuming your reloading practices are sound and you did not have Bullseye powder on the bench.....

You experienced either:
1. Firing another round into a bore obstruction after a squib round fired.
2. You double charged the case which is very common in very light loads.
3. You experienced a "pressure excursion" using minimal powder charges in bottle-necked cases. This is called "detonation" by the ballistic experts and while a rare event, does occur.

Glad you are OK.

[Hamish]

I seem to remember Buckshot posting that long ago, IIRC, I don't believe it was his rifle,,,,,,

[swheeler]

You are correct that he posted it long ago, I think on the site before this one. IIRC it was his rifle and was loading 4227 powder, figured he got a double charge.

[Char-Gar]

We have fought the "filler wars" on this board and it's predecessors for many years and I had thought they were about over. I don't think there will be any agreement this time around either.

There are some folks who believe that a Dacron fillers is a good thing. There are others who trace ringed chambers to it.

There are others who feel that organic fillers like Cream of Wheat, Oatmeal, Coffee and the like are great things. However as illustrated in this post, when used in bottle neck cases, they can form a hard plug and push pressures through the roof. They tend to absorb moisture and form a very hard plug.

There there are the folks who use non-organic fillers such as Grex like materials. Precision Shotshell Buffer is a common choice. Unlike organic materials there won't hardened and form a plug, just blow out the muzzle. There is a small white cloud at the muzzle that smells like hot plastic.

I hold the opinion that fillers have limited use. I only use PSB when using very slow machine gun ball powder (WC872) to fill the case to form a compressed charge, which greatly assist in a clean burn. Even then, I only use 1 to 1.5 ccs of PSB. I have found 50/WC872 to be a great powder charge for the 30-06, .308 Win and 30-40 Krag. Only the larger 30-06 requires any PBS to form a lightly compressed load. This will push 165 to 200 grain cast gas check bullets 1.8K to 1.9K fps depending on all the various factors involved.

There are so many powders that require no fillers for good cast bullet performance and it seem hardly worth the effort and risk to play with them.

[Char-Gar]

You are correct that he posted it long ago, I think on the site before this one. IIRC it was his rifle and was loading 4227 powder, figured he got a double charge.

That is my memory as well. I lifted the pics at that time and still have them on my hard drive. They illustrate quite well what happens when a low numbered 03 lets go. They turn into fragments whereas the high number 03s. swell up and lock up when they let go.

The low number 03 don't fail at any higher rate or pressure than the higher number versions. The difference is what happen when they do let go.

The Krags had the same imperfect heat treatment as the low 03s, but the design doesn't trap the gas like the 03 design does.