Milling Machine desire resulting in insanity need advice...

[AbitNutz]

Ok, some of you have been there...I want a milling machine. I've never used one. The closest thing I've used is a drill press. However, the desire persists.

I have seen on Craig's list and eBay used milling machines going for extremely reasonable money. I know that the machine is only half the battle, the end mills and accessories ultimately cost at least as much as the machine.

I have to stay away from 3-phase power for obvious reasons. I know there are ways to convert single phase to 3-phase by using a motor but I think that's beyond me.

Can anyone recommend some brands/models? What to stay away from? What to look for? I know condition is everything and parts/repairs are expensive...if they can be had at all. Oh god! Help! See...? If I keep this up I'm going to end up breathing into a paper bag.

[country gent]

One thing you might consider is a machine trades night school coarse or a couple of the apprenticeship courses at a night school or trade school. These will give you an understanding of the machines and capabilities possibly with some hands on with small projects. You definitly want a universal mill first, Bridge port ( has the best reputation in industry) index, Cincinatti ( cinci made one that was vertical and horizontal spindles) jet, accer, or some others. Things to Look for are R-8 collets or quick change tool holders. For hobby use thre R-8s due very well. A power drawbar is nice but requires air pressure and isnt really neccesary. A clean smooth flat table, not drilled or milled full of holes or slots. Digital read outs are nice and makes removing play easy but not neccesary again. On the bridge port style mills the ram swivel should be checked to make sure none of the spiders clamps are broken. A series 2 head with variable again is nice but the series 1 style with step pulleys and v belt does fine. Alot depends on 1) how much room you have to dedicate to this machine, 2) How involved you really want to get with it, 3) The uses for it.

[AbitNutz]

Fortunately, I live in an area of the world that is filled with small machine shops....SW Ohio. I live in the country between Dayton and Cincinnati. Well, I guess that depends on your definition of country...

It's interesting, despite this area being machine shop heaven, there are little if any night courses available. I think there is a sort of unspoken apprenticeship situation going on. I'm thinking of going and asking to work around a shop for nothing...I'm retired so my time is my own. I'm not holding out much hope for this idea. I expect most will feel I'd be more trouble than I'm worth...a good possibility.

I know about the R8 collet. I have air. I didn't think about the clean table or clamps.

[country gent]

That spider under the ram rotation that clamps it tight breaks if tightened to tight to many times. Not super expensive but the ran and swivel have to come off to replace it. Check with any local colledges they may offer the coarses or know who is.

[bob208]

go to the Hobby-Machinist. they have beginners they also have some who mentor new people. I have had a guy coming to my house learning for the last year or so. I just helped him get a Rockwell 21-100 mill. and a 9" south bend lathe. if you lived closer to me I would teach you too.

as for mills a clausing 8520 is a good mill I have had one for over 20 years. the Rockwell is a very good mill also. both will do gun work.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I sure understand your desire for a mill, because I had the same bug and bought one about 25 years ago. I also purchased a fairly large 40" centers lathe. Over the years I found the lathe to be much more useful in general gunsmithing work that is the mill. There do seem to be some jobs that are just right for a mill. It's a great over-simplification, but lathes make things round and mills make things flat. But you can also buy a milling attachment for a lathe, and then there isn't much you can't do with just the lathe. So I guess what I'm saying is take a hard look at what it is that you want to do, and buying a lathe might be the better move. Kind of reinforcing what Country Gent said, but maybe saying it a bit differently, the traditional milling machine that us older guys think about was the Bridgeport type that resembles a large, heavy duty, free standing drill press. They require you to do everything manually. A step up is numerical assist, and the next step is CNC. Naturally, the more features the more expensive the machine. You are correct that tooling is a major expense. I'm planning on relocating soon (moving) and will probably sell my machines--just too far and too heavy to haul. After I get settled in, if I decided I need something like this again I'm going to take a look at some of the combination machines. Used to be no one had much good to say about them, but I think they've improved--just another thing you might look at. About the 3-phase 220V electrical problem, you can get them that run off 110V. They aren't as powerful, but are adequate for some jobs. Mine has a huge 3-phase motor but runs on standard 220V using a device called a phase converter. It cost just a bit over $100, but that was years ago. Works just fine.

[bangerjim]

I have a HF mill-drill we have use hard for the past 15 years and it is still going strong! Less than $650 in it's day. Uses all standard R8 stuff and we can clamp just about anything (index, rotary table, CNC index, tilting table, clamps, etc) to the standard bed. I am not a proponent of HF tools, but their big power stuff is not bad. This one has sure been a good one to us!!!!!

Starting out with some of the brands listed above will set you back many thousands of $$. Start small, learn how to run a mill, and grow into a bigger better one. If your money tree is alive and well, buy the "biggest and bestest" you can find!

Whatever you buy, make sure it uses R8 tooling so you can keep the many thousands of $$ worth of tooling you WILL buy and use it with the next bigger mill you WILL buy!

Being in that part of the country, you should be able to find some good used machines and tooling.

bangerjim

[footpetaljones]

See if there are any makerspaces in your area with a mill or even a lathe with a milling attachment that you could get some practice on.

I'd agree with country gent, a used Bridgeport would be your best option.

[Clark]

I paid $2,200 to get a 1965 Rockwell 21-100 mill on Ebay 12 years ago. It came with a 3 phase converter box.
I paid $12,000 to get a 1969 Bridgeport mill on Ebay 1 year ago. I bought a 3 phase converter box [phase-o-matic]
http://www.use-enco.com/1/1/35075-st...-297-3715.html
I could have done any gunsmithing with the small mill, but getting DRO was nice.

[HangFireW8]

No reason to fear a phase converter.

[bangerjim]

I use AllenBradley 220 phase converters on several tools in our shops. They work great.

All solid state.....much better than the old spinner we used to have. It made a great boat anchor.

220 single phase in - - - - 220 three phase out. Soft start/soft stop. Totally programmable.

They also make a 120v single phase to 220 v three phase unit.

bangerjim

[bob208]

I don't know where you live clark. but around here we pay nothing like those prices. a friend just bought a Rockwell 21-100 for $1000 three months ago. it looks almost new. bp's are in the $3,000 to 4,000 range. I bought my enco 9x42 with power feed,dro and variable speed head new for under 5000 shipping included.


the static converter in your picture also comes with instructions on how to build a rotary converter. that is what we did in my shop.

[BwBrown]

Find and make friends with a hobby machinist, or even a small machine shop. Offer to sweep the floor - anything - so you can watch and learn. A couple years hanging around, you'll soon get "checked out" on one machine then another. Then you will be helping, eventually actually working.
It is possible to go from curious friend to business partner.
I did it. That small private machine shop owner became my best friend ever.
He has since passed on, but I now have a couple each of Bridgeports and South Bend lathes in MY hobby machine shop. And I spend quiet hours trying to remember what all he tried to teach me.
Great memories!

[wrench man]

Don't have one at home, yet, but at work I run a Bridgeport "J" Series with a Mitutoyo

digimatic

DRO on it, can do just about anything on it.

[AbitNutz]

A real dream is to get a base machine that either has DRO on it already or I can add it to later...and that I could add CNC capability on later yet. I'm not sure such a thing exists but...

I have a height limitation of about 7'-6"...

If I have eBay search closest results first...I get many, many hits. I can get something large for $5,000. I have no idea if they're any good. It's almost like my wife shopping for a motorcycle or pistol.

[country gent]

The bridgeport with the protrac ezy path controllers may be available in some areas. Can be programed from the console or computer program ( these can be pricey programs) easy to use and set up uses standard tooling. The drawback is most are only 2 axis machines (x + Y). A fadel or other 4 or 5 axis machine center is going to be expensive and tooling even more so.

[Mitch]

man that old bridgeort hurt ouch

[oldred]

the static converter in your picture also comes with instructions on how to build a rotary converter. that is what we did in my shop.

Yes those usually work better if full power is needed but unlike a true rotary converter they are usually quite unbalanced and in dire need of additional capacitors to get everything smoothed out, my three horsepower lathe motor would start and run just fine in both low and high ranges using the static converter alone but after adding a new 5 horsepower GE motor to the equation as recommended by the manufacturer the lathe now will fail to start in high range, tripping the breaker after about five seconds, other than that once running it is smooth and now has full power. It starts just fine in low but the only way I could get it to start in high range was to use a higher gear so as to make spinning the chuck by hand possible thus giving it a running start! A local guy who is well versed in electronics finally fixed this problem for me but it required adding a bank of capacitors and much head scratching determining what and how much, simply adding the motor to the converter can work but it is far from ideal, they don't include all those big capacitors with the true rotary convertors for a joke! After researching my problem quite a bit I found this is very common when adding that motor and very often, as was certainly my case, it's better to just use the static converter by itself because while adding the motor to the static unit does make it a rotary unit it is a very unbalanced one that can cause a host of problems.


Besides the newer VFD solid state convertor units make static or rotary convertors or static with a motor added obsolete! The VFD units can be about the same cost as a static convertor and even cheaper than a rotary unless several machines need to be powered and the VFD can do many things that neither of the other two types can even dream about doing! Instant reversing, dynamic breaking, variable speed, etc all from a machine that has none of those capabilities from either a static or a rotary converter or even hooked up to grid three phase power for that matter.

[Garyshome]

Check this one out
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill...-and-DRO/G0759

[AbitNutz]

Wow...now we're talking! That Grizzly looks very affordable. I wonder what else is available in its class?