Patching to groove dia.?

[.22-10-45]

Getting ready to try some P.P. in a G.M. barreled Remington roller in .40-70 ( 21/2" str.) Bore dia. (land-land) .400" groove dia. .408" I made up bore dia. & +.001" samples but since rifle is chambered for G.G., I had to full length resize case for snug fit on bullet. Since these are strectched .30-40 from Buffalo Arms, I was concerned about this much sizing each loading. I read about groove dia. patched bullets here..and here is what I did. My mould drops at .400, using BACO .0025" patching paper, dia. over dried patch is .408". Same slight neck sizing as with G.G. gave me nice snug bullet fit in neck. Of course bullets had to be seated deeper than ones patched to bore dia., but chambered rounds went in OK. I will only be using real black..Swiss 1 1/2 & Olde Ensford. That bullet is of course going to be real tight in bore..are there any concerns or pitfalls in my method? These are target loads so wiping after each shot is no problem. Thanks for any opinions.

[Don McDowell]

I shoot a .400 diameter slick patched in Seth Cole 55w in my 40-70, it has to be seated pretty deep to chamber, but that's sort of the way with this rifle, there is no throat to speak of. I will occasionally notice a paper ring.
Here's what I got out of the bullet backed by 69 grs. of OE 1 1/2 a napa cork wad and a dry lubed felt wad in Jamison cases. 300 yds. blow tubing, the wind was a miserable bugger so we quit after just a few rounds, but had similar results on an earlier outing. Nothing great, but it does show promise, and really tightens up wiping between shots.

[montana_charlie]

Of course bullets had to be seated deeper than ones patched to bore dia., but chambered rounds went in OK. I will only be using real black..Swiss 1 1/2 & Olde Ensford. That bullet is of course going to be real tight in bore..are there any concerns or pitfalls in my method? These are target loads so wiping after each shot is no problem. Thanks for any opinions.

Wipe with damp patches (and a dry one) between shots and you should get good results.

[BrentD]

What you are doing will certainly work. But you can shoot bore diameter w/o full length resizing every time. Just size the neck with your FL die backed off several turns or simply taper crimp a bore diameter bullet in the unsized case after loading with powder and wad. I do the latter all the time.

[semtav]

.22
how has your paper patching been going? Still working on the Groove dia loads?

[Toymaker]

I'm doing something similar with a high wall in 38-55 using a Lyman 378674 and a BACO 380360. Since the process is going to be similar I'll just talk about the BACO bullet. The rifle measures 0.379" groove and 0.3725" bore. The bullet drops from the mold at 0.380" in 20:1 and is 1.465" long with a long thin nose. Weight is 367.5 ±0.5 grains.
I wrap two times around with a 25% cotton tracing paper that is 0.002" thick. The wrap extends about a quarter inch above the first band which, when seated in the chamber, will be up in the rifling. The patch is lubricated with my BP lube and run through a 0.380" sizing die in my lubrisizer. I run it up and down 4 times just to make sure the patch is compressed and smooth. I made 10 bullets this way. Then I change the die to a 0.379" die and repeat the process with 5 of the bullets. This gives me 5 bullets 0.380" and 5 bullets 0.379" in diameter and the nose will fit up into the bore just barely engaging the rifling.
Using Starline 2.125" fire formed brass with CCI large rifle primers I will load to 3.22" O.A.L. with Goex FFg through a 24" drop tube, 0.03" Walters wad, 1 disk of newsprint, and 0.37" compression. (56 grains FFg). This has developed a little over 1,300 fps and 5-shot groups just under 2" at 100 yards (repeated twice) wiping (up and out) between shots with a damp Moosemilk patch.
The load for the Lyman bullet (1.312" long, 0.379" diameter, 20:1, 334.5 ±0.5 grains) will be Olde Eynsford FFg (51.5 grains) through a 24" drop tube, Fel-Pro Rubber-fiber 0.03" wad, 1 disk newsprint to 0.25" compression, O.A.L. 2.92". I haven't shot this load through the chrony yet but groups are a little over 2" at 100 yards. A blowtube is used between shots rather than wiping.
Won't have time to test until early next week. Hopefully the weather will clear and be good.

[Toymaker]

Although I learned a lot my experiment failed. Using dummy cartridges last week I fit them in the rifle chamber and found that the bullets were too thick to fit. I carefully trimmed a little of the patch and tried again. In total I probably trimmed 1/8 inch off the width of the patch. I dismantled the cartridges and measured the width of the patch, then cut my test patches to that width.
After patching, drying, following the sizing procedure outlined and loading I fit every cartridge in the rifle to make sure it fit properly. 5 days later, at the range yesterday, I found that half the cartridges wouldn't fit. The diameter of the bullet had increased to the point I couldn't thumb them in, even with extreme pressure. Those that did fit gave me a shotgun pattern.
Oh, well. I did learn some things.

[Chill Wills]

That's too bad! What if you are very close and just need to size smaller?
Maybe everything else is great and you just need to adjust sizing or paper? You have come this far....

[BrentD]

Did you get leading after removing that patch material? Check carefully and be sure that you did, or did not.

What is the land diameter of your barrel? What is the diameter of a wrapped bullet? These are the two most critical dimensions. If you are off by 0.001" you can make a larger bullet fit in a smaller barrel, but more more than 0.001" and it gets pretty hard to work with.

You can size already wrapped bullets very easily with Lee sizing dies. These are push-through dies that will not distort the nose or make the bullet less concentric. They are pretty cheap, about $30-35 delivered to your door. Lee Precision has them in any size by 0.001" increments.

Brent

[rfd]

brent, is the diameter goal for a patched bpcr bullet to be the exact bore diameter, or .001" over or under that rifle's bore diameter?

i can't imagine how military or commercial ppb cartridges of the 19th century could be made to work for a multitude of rifles and maintain reasonable accuracy ... ?

[Chill Wills]

Although I learned a lot my experiment failed. Using dummy cartridges last week I fit them in the rifle chamber and found that the bullets were too thick to fit. I carefully trimmed a little of the patch and tried again. In total I probably trimmed 1/8 inch off the width of the patch. I dismantled the cartridges and measured the width of the patch, then cut my test patches to that width.
After patching, drying, following the sizing procedure outlined and loading I fit every cartridge in the rifle to make sure it fit properly. 5 days later, at the range yesterday, I found that half the cartridges wouldn't fit. The diameter of the bullet had increased to the point I couldn't thumb them in, even with extreme pressure. Those that did fit gave me a shotgun pattern.
Oh, well. I did learn some things.

I just reread your other post again (#6) about using a blow tube. Were the loaded rounds that you were able to load/shoot - the shotgun pattern loads, shot using a blow tube ?

Accuracy can be had with a blow tube but it is easier with a dry bore.

[BrentD]

rfd,
For best target accuracy, you want a "snug fit" which is just about 0.001" over land diameter. Maybe a titch less. But often if you strive for right at land diameter, you will find what you need, a friction fit. But this is for the very best accuracy.

Military and commercial rounds really weren't supposed to be for maximum accuracy anymore than today's commercial or military ammo is for. Esp. with respect to military, being smaller than bore diameter to keep on shooting was probably infinitely more important that having MOA or better accuracy at 1000 yds. So, don't use that sort of ammo for a benchmark unless you are looking for similar usage (ie, high volume, low precision work). Also, a lot of military was probably more like a groove diameter bullet, loaded short and fat. But I don't know a lot about military ammo.

What Chill Will said about blow tubes and paper patches is spot on though a bit understated. Wipe between shots to see what accuracy potential your load has before you try to fly w/o wiping. That is really a different beast to conquer.

Brent

[rfd]

brent,

good scoop on ppb fit to bore, that's pretty much what i want and have read about. i'm looking to create wad-only .45-2.10 ppb cartridges, no cookies, get the most amount of bp in the brass, and therefore will be solely wiping, no blow tubing.

i gotta say, this ppb thing so far has been considerably more "complicated" than greasers, with lots more to think about and make "fit" well. i dunno where it'll take me, or if i'll wind up sticking with greasers, but so far it's been quite an interesting, er, adventure.

yes, i expected military/commercial rounds to be more utilitarian by nature of the beast(s). just interesting, that's all, but not my intent.

thanx again,
rob.

[BrentD]

Rob,
Try this recipe. A CCI-BR2 primer or some other mild match rifle primer. 82 grs of Swiss 1.5 fg powder. A 00.06" fiber wad or similar thickness LDPE plastic wad (from buffaloarms.com). Drop tube the powder, add the wad and compress just enough to give you between 0.09 and 0.10" of case space. Place bullet on top. Mildly taper crimp or touch up with your FL sizing die to "crimp" the bullet just enough to hold it in the case. Do NOT use a standard crimp die.

This should be all you need. In the end, PPB is easier not harder than groove bullets. If you are working harder at paper patching, something is wrong.

Run two damp and one dry patch between shots for now. ONce you have an accurate load, then test how little you can get away with in regards to wiping between shots.

[rfd]

more good stuff, thank you, brent.

[Toymaker]

So many questions, so lets see how much of a start I can make.
Chill Wills - give up? I'm from Missouri, born under the sign of Taurus of German stock. Blow tube - I fired two blanks, did 2 wet patches (Moosemilk) and 1 dry, then fired the first test round. Then did the blow tube, 5 deep breaths, and tried to put the next round (#2) in. It didn't fit so I went through ALL the rounds and none fit. I wiped with 1 wet patch, 1 dry patch and tried #2 again. It fit. So I guessed fouling was the problem and put the blow tube away. Between each shot I wiped 1 wet, 1 dry patch.
BrentD - There was absolutely NO leading what-so-ever. I had been getting slivers in the first couple of inches as if some lead was chipping or stripping off the bullet as it started up the bore.
The groove diameter of the rifle is 0.3790 inch. The bore diameter is 0.3720 to 0.3725 inch. The groove diameter was measured with a micrometer and was consistent all around the slug. The bore diameter had to be measured with calibers and varied 0.0005 inch on one side. Or maybe I varied.
The BACO bullet drops at 0.380 in 20:1 and wrapped measured 0.383 inch. I ran them through a 0.380 sizing die after wrapping then a 0.379 sizing die before seating. They were confirmed 0.379 inch.
The cartridges that would not fit were brought home and carefully disassembled. They were measured ABOVE the point where they were in the case and found to measure 0.380 to 0.3815 inch. Since they had been sized to 0.379 they expanded 0.001 to 0.0025 inch in the 5 days between loading and testing. The bullets measured 0.3785 to 0.379 inch. Since I don't have a measurement of the bullet after it was wrapped and sized I don't have anything to compare this to. The paper on only one bullet was messed up as if it snagged on the rifling in one place. The others appeared undamaged although I could see where the rifling rubbed on the paper. A couple had carbon smudges on the bullet ahead of the paper and a little on the leading edge of the paper.

I think I got all the questions .....

Note - I've read The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews three times. I understand that, according to him, BP PP bullets are wrapped to bore size primarily because fouling won't let the second round chamber. (unless you wipe) AND I understand smokeless PP bullets can be wrapped to groove size because there isn't any fouling. Again, according to him. But I'm intrigued by his statement that BP and smokeless bullets can be wrapped to groove size IF you wipe between shots.
Hmmmm. Needing only 1 bullet for BP or smokeless PP loads. Now that's interesting..........
Now, question for you Brent - I see you suggest a CCI-BR2 primer or other mild match primer. Why? My understanding is that BR primers are hotter and (generally) more consistent. BUT more people that not will put a piece of paper over the primer hole before loading the powder to mute the primer. Some will punch a piece of paper into the primer hole with the primer to mute it. I even read of one person punching a piece of aluminum foil into the primer hole with the primer to mute it.

[BrentD]

I see I forgot that you were shooting a .38 rather than a .45. Skip that recipe.

Meanwhile, you certainly can shoot groove diameter paper patched bullets with blackpowder. Indeed, if you are going to shoot a fouled bore, then I would recommend them in some cases. They have to be loaded as if they were grease grooves, down deep in the case. A bore diameter bullet that is hanging way out in front of the case won't chamber without damaging the patch badly - and then leading the bore. But some compromises can be made.

As for the primer wads, I don't think they matter at all. A friend went so far as to swage lead bird shot into the flashhole and that didn't make any difference. So, I gave up on primer wads pretty quick.

As for why BR2? Well, I'll have to expound on that later. I'm about to play hooky with a bunch of grad students at the rifle range.

[Lead pot]

I spent one summer testing wads under the primer in the primer pockets. I did not see any improvements in accuracy but I did find what can happen to the face of the breach block. What your looking at is blowback from the primers cutting the face of the block. Gas cuts from the primers.

[semtav]

personally I think most of your problem is sizing them after you put the paper on. Size them to a smaller size first then wrap them to.379. I load the so they engage the rifling by 1/8 to 1/4 inch and cam them in with a camming tool. you can load one, then extract it and look at the paper. if the rifling is smooth on the paper you shouldnt have a problem. Also make sure you have no lip on the inside of the mouth of your case, that will tear the paper.

[Toymaker]

Brent - Oh, I shoot 45-70 But I'm pretty happy with the loads I have for it.
Attachment 178758 Attachment 178759

Now I want the 38-55 to shoot like that.

Leadpot - I hadn't thought of that. At one time using large pistol primers was recommended but I was concerned about them seating deeper and then slamming back into the face so I tried a couple, saw possible issues with no benefit and quit.

Semtav - are you camming the whole cartridge into the chamber? Not sure about that; I can see the bullet getting pushed back into the case and changing all kinds of things. Don't have a camming tool either. I could go the breech seating route, but think I'll save that for another day. Gonna look around for someone who sells pp bullets of the proper size. I have papers that will increase the diameter by 0.0055, 0.0165, 0.019, and 0.025 when wet wrapped twice. Roger on a smooth inner lip. I do a slight camfer.