Which Wide Meplat RF Boolits For .45 Schofield? Pet Project In The Works...

[Potsy]

I really like the old Colt Case. I do think about all of them could benefit from a custom cylinder, there are a LOT of sloppy chamber and throat dimensions out there. Not to mention forcing cones.
I've had similar thoughts about the Schofield Case and med. frame Blackhawks and Vaqueros, but every time I dwell on it, my practical side just keeps coming back to a .44 Special (granted, .44's make for heavier guns).
At the end of the day, I just have a hard time understanding what it is that a Colt case can't do that everyone wants it to.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it done just so I could know! Someday I'll have a short, light, worked over Vaquero and I'd love to see this angle covered.

[DougGuy]

We are getting there! I found a .45 ACP cylinder that fit in my Vaquero PERFECTLY! Ruger couldn't have fitted it any tighter!

I cut down a piece of brass to .185" to use as a depth stop for the Clymer .45 Colt reamer and used it to rechamber the .45 ACP cylinder to .45 Schofield. It came out really slick after some light polishing. This reamer has a .4525" solid nose on it, so cylinder throats would have to be sized to .4525" before it will even go into the cylinder which is also PERFECT, because we would want throats for a .452" boolit and by the time they get reamed and honed for .452" boolits, the reamer fits in there quite snug. Couldn't ask for better.

.45 Schofield cylinder on the left, .45 Colt on the right. You can see the longer throats on the Schofield cylinder as opposed to the .45 Colt:



I sized and primed 250 Starline .45 Schofield cases last night and am ready to get started assembling loads!

There is an interesting thread in the CBA forum by Ed Harris who writes about using .45 Schofield brass in a Colt New Service 5 1/2" bbl, and also a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk with the .45 Colt cylinder. You can read it here: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum...351&forum_id=4

Ed basically states in a nutshell that the longer cylinder of the .45 Colt does not do the shorter .45 Schofield any favors as accuracy suffers UNTIL loads were seated out long enough to put the boolit into the throat or very near the throat. Which is one of the main reasons I chose to rechamber a cylinder rather than have a .45 caliber version of shooting .38 Special loads in a .357 Magnum cylinder.

He also mentions that accuracy suffered with using sized boolits in the .455" throats of the Colt, and got best accuracy with unsized as-cast boolits. We already know about fitting boolits to the throats. He also remarked that accuracy suffered in the Blackhawk by loading the Schofield case to prescribed COA, and using different sized boolits didn't have much effect on it. Again, this is what happens when the boolits are not seated into the throats! This is very important, and another reason we say FIT IS KING!

Looking for loads that are upwards of 23,000psi, I can find cowboy loads and standard pressure .45 Schofield loads all day. I need some data that will take the typical .45 boolits into that Tier 2 level in Schofield brass..

Powders on hand:

Unique
W231
Red Dot
Green Dot
Blue Dot
Tite Group
Herco
HS6
LilGun
H2400
H110

Boolits from 225gr to 260.

Would like to find some lighter boolits in the 200gr range, in both full WC and RF designs.

Anyone wanting to share in this thread, or even share some boolits are welcome to do so!

Edit: Ordered my copy of Quickload, going to need it for this application.

[ReloaderFred]

Doug,

I could send you some .45 bullets from 150 gr. to 235 gr. to try out. The 150 gr. are RNFP, but I also have 185 gr. RNFP, 200 gr. RNFP and a 235 gr. SWC mold. These have already been sized to .452", and I don't have many unsized, other than the 185 gr. RNFP. I have many other .45 caliber molds, mostly Magma, too.

If interested, send me a PM and I'll see what I've got on hand that will fit in a SFRB.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[DougGuy]

w00h00 TYVM sir! PM sent...

[Outpost75]

Very interesting project. My SWAG is that 7 grains of Bullseye, which is a full charge load in .45 Colt brass with a 255-grain bullet, should boost the pressure up pretty close to what you are looking for in the Schofield case, due to the reduced free airspace, and that it should burn clean as a whistle. My educated guess, based on what 7 grains does in .45 Colt, I would expect 1050-1080 fps from a 4-5/8" barrel, for about a 15% pressure-velocity kick, the increase being almost inversely proportional to the reduction in case volume. Quickload would be more accurate, but comparing Bullseye loads in .38 Special vs. .357 years ago the results were similar. I would guess also that using pressure tested data for standard pressure .45 Colt loads, just by virtue of reducing overall cartridge length from 1.60" to 1.45 you'd get similar results with 8 grains of Unique or 9 grains of Herco in your Schofield case.

If that happened to work out in practice it would be very convenient.

[DougGuy]

Very interesting project.

I would guess also that using pressure tested data for standard pressure .45 Colt loads, just by virtue of reducing overall cartridge length from 1.60" to 1.45 you'd get similar results with 8 grains of Unique or 9 grains of Herco in your Schofield case. .45 Colt case = 1.285" .45 Schofield case = 1.109"

If that happened to work out in practice it would be very convenient.

Actually it DOES. I was running boolits and powders by the gentleman that sells Quickload and he was inputting data into the program and the loads for 9.0gr Herco in standard .45 Colt brass comes out to 21,xxx psi in Schofield brass.

Afaik, 15.0gr H2400 does the same thing, as does H110. The determining factor is the % of powder burn. The slower burning magnum powders although they gave acceptable pressures and velocity only got into the low 60% range of burn. Powders like Unique and Herco got into much higher percentages of powder burned.

I know that Quickload is not as accurate with straight walled pistol cases as it is with bottlenecked rifle cases, and it doesn't effectively figure in the barrel/cylinder gap but many of the powders reach maximum pressure before the boolit travels far enough to even reach the b/c gap and this would be the deciding factor on whether a load might not be safe.

[Outpost75]

I've done a little fooling around with Alliant #2400 in the .45 Colt and the charges recommended for .45 Colt in standard pressure loads leave alot of unburned powder and have poor ballistic uniformity in the revolver, but work just fine in a solid rifle barrel.

I used 15.4 grains in Starline Schofield brass, firing them in my Ruger Blackhawk and velocities were higher and more uniform, but accuracy poor, for the throat-fit and jump reasons you previously discussed so eloquently. I believe that for the Ruger revolvers, having a Schofield cylinder and just using standard pressure .45 Colt loads in the shorter Schofield brass to reduce the free airspace and to increase loading density will be the elegantly safe and simple recipe with minimal voodoo and wierd science.

Maybe we need a new name and defined performance parameters for it so that people don't confuse it for the weak Cowboy round, I recommend we go ahead use the metric designator 11.5x28R and define its performance envelope at 16.5g, 330m/s, 1500bar, has a nice ring to it?

I would like to see how the 7 grains of Bullseye works and if the %burned gets into the 95+% level and if its pressure exceeds about 22,000 psi., don't think it will. Bet you could increase .45 ACP data for the same weight bullet in proportion to the increase in powder space and be really close...

[DougGuy]

I would be closer using .44 Special data than extrapolating .45 ACP data.

This same idea that I am doing could be done on the .44 Special in a Flattop Ruger as well. I haven't seen much +P data for .44 Special but it would be perfectly safe in a Large Framed Ruger up to ever how far you wanted to go with it, if you seated out to .44 magnum COA, you could use .44 magnum load data for it. ONLY in a LARGE FRAMED GUN.

For the medium framed .44 Special Blackhawk Flattop, we speculate that the .44 Special could be loaded safely to 25,000psi owing to the simple fact that the medium framed .45 caliber guns are rated to 23,000psi, and the .44 has slightly thicker cylinder walls due to it's lesser overall diameter.

So basically the project I am involved in here is nothing more than an upsized .44 Special. By the time you figure in the volumetric differences between case length vs. case diameter of the two, you almost have 6 of one thing, half a dozen of the other.

My goals are simple and the advantages are slim but they are there none the less. Most if not all of this can be accomplished with a .45/.45 convertible. Doing it with the .45 Schofield brass is merely an extra step toward consistency because of the lessened case volume and consistency translates directly to group size.

Less ES with light target loads than the .45 Colt, still able to use roll crimp and a better choice of boolits as opposed to the .45 ACP.

Heavier boolit for more energy for hunting than the .45 ACP which runs out of pressure ceiling rather quickly with heavy boolits.

Basically this is a cartridge that overcomes the woes of using .45 Colt for cowboy loads, yet retains the major power factor for hunting which can easily outstep the .45 ACP, .45 AR, and .45 Special cowboy cartridges.

Ruger gave us a DANG FINE tier two platform, and some of the BEST fitted revolvers they have EVER made, so let's put the shine on it and see just how good we can make it.

[DuaneH]

The Schofield case is just .06 shorter than the .44 spl, and is of larger caliber. Pressure will be slightly less using the same powder charges with the same weight bullets. Brian Pearce did an extensive writeup on the .44 spl in Handloader #236, with many loads listed at 22kpsi. I have used this data directly in the Schofield, chambered in a Ruger OM mid-frame.

Doug, I can send you some RCBS 230 CM, and Saeco #453 (225 gr. WC) if you care to try them. The RCBS cowboy bullet works well for me. I have not tried the Saeco in this caliber. Due to the deep seating WC style bullet, charges would have to be reduced.

[Bigslug]

Doug, for your pondering, we just launched an interest thread for this one over at NOE in the Ranch Dog section:

We were rolling strictly for .45ACP when one of the clever responders asked about converting the front TL groove into a crimp groove. Should work well for what you have in mind.

[Wayne Smith]

Doug, I have the NOE 45-230HP cut FP that comes out of the mold @ 250gr. It may have a 60% meplat?? I can bring some down when we come next month, no date set yet. You will probably want to push it harder than I do in my Model 3 but my loads hit point of aim in it.

[DougGuy]

The Schofield case is just .06 shorter than the .44 spl, and is of larger caliber. Pressure will be slightly less using the same powder charges with the same weight bullets. Brian Pearce did an extensive writeup on the .44 spl in Handloader #236, with many loads listed at 22kpsi. I have used this data directly in the Schofield, chambered in a Ruger OM mid-frame.

Doug, I can send you some RCBS 230 CM, and Saeco #453 (225 gr. WC) if you care to try them. The RCBS cowboy bullet works well for me. I have not tried the Saeco in this caliber. Due to the deep seating WC style bullet, charges would have to be reduced.

Shoot yeah! I posted a thread in the exchange looking for some #453s but no one responded. I used to shoot those in .45 ACP brass with teeny weeny charges of 700x when I shot dots. Eventually got a Bulberry barrel for T/C short chambered to like 1.00" and used cut off .45 Colt brass and it worked.

I never seated them all the way but would like to try them in this Schofield. I went and bought QuickLoad so I can figure out in there if something doesn't sound right. I think once the shank volume is computed, there may be a more conventional style boolit that matches the 453 for how much case volume it takes up.

A couple of fellas have sent some samples of a great weight range, I have to lay all these out and one by one go through them and put them into a .bul file for QL, once this is done I think I can start loading rounds for testing.

APPRECIATE ALL WHO HAVE RESPONDED!!

This has been 3yrs in the doing, biggest obstacle was finding the correct "donor" gun and "donor" cylinder to ream out and convert. Well, throw in tonsil cancer in 2013 and that kinda slowed things down a lot, but I am well on the way to getting this shooting. The gun and cylinder are DONE. It has a .45 Colt cylinder with .4525" throats and it has a .45 Schofield cylinder with .4525" throats, forcing cone beautifully touched up to 11° and a no creep clean break trigger job. It's all done but the FUN!

[DougGuy]

Okay fellas, time to get back to this thread and post an update. I have the samples, THANK YOU VERY MUCH to those who graciously sent me some boolits to use in this testing, I have invested in QuickLoad software just to oversee the loads and make sure I don't get into any over pressure events, and the rounds for testing have been loaded and pretty much ready for the range session soon.

Here are the candidates:



Ranging in weight from 150gr to 260gr, with pretty much every style of flat nose wide meplat boolit represented. Powders used were 6.0gr TiteGroup in the light boolit category, 150gr to 200gr, 7.5gr Unique in the standard pressure loads, 6.0gr Green Dot in the mildly +P loads, with 11.0gr and 11.5gr HS-6 used in the full 23,000psi +P Tier 2 power WFN hunting loads, and finally topping out with 21.5gr H110 in the 250gr OWC-PB full wadcutter, far right in the photo.

L to R:

150gr Magma RNFP
185gr Magma RNFP
200gr Magma RNFP
200gr Lee C452-200-RF
255gr Lee C452-255-RF
Rimrock Bullets 260gr "Deer Grenade" LSWC-HP-GC
452423 LSWC-HP-BB
452423 LSWC-PB
454190 RNFP
230gr Magma RN-BB
235gr Magma LSWC-BB
250gr LBT WFN-PB
250gr LBT WFN-GC
250gr LBT OWC-PB

For whatever reason, QuickLoad seemed to favor the load data given for Green Dot powder, maybe it is the middle sized case capacity between the .45 ACP and the .45 Colt, I am not sure but these loads at least on the computer were the most promising so I went with Green Dot. Same with HS-6 in the heavier +P hunting loads, it gave excellent velocities while still maintaining a decent headroom under the 23,000psi pressure ceiling that this revolver is rated for.

I will hopefully post some range reports and targets later next week. The only thing I do not have is a pressure barrel and strain gauge for pressure testing but that may be coming next year when I go to Florida in January. I have a fella down there who sells a LOT of powder and ammo on GB, who is interested in the Schofield Vaquero project and would assist in pressure testing and load development, he has expressed interest in possibly producing ammo for this caliber. Wonder if Ruger would ever consider issuing a .45 Schofield revolver? Would be quite neat I think..

[ddixie884]

I really like your idea......

[StrawHat]

Any updates, Doug?

Kevin

[Outpost75]

I have three long-nosed Accurate molds for 45-240H1, 45-262H and 45-290H which will exploit the length of the Ruger cylinder and not intrude excessively into the powder space using Schofield brass. These all drop .455 for my S&W .45 Hand Ejector and Webley MkVI, which you honed the cylinder on. They would have to be sized quite a bit...If you would like firing samples let me know.

Attachment 211001Attachment 211002Attachment 211003

[Dale53]

DougGuy;
I have been following this thread with great interest. There is more than one way "to the promised land". I suspect that your new project is going to work out just fine. At my age, I have quit experimenting and pretty much go with my old choices. In the case of the the area you are working in I can immediately think of two viable choices. A good .44 Special would handle the whole range quite well (either my Ruger .44 Special Flattops or my Smith Model 24 or 624's). Another excellent choice would be the recent Lipsey .45 Colt/.45 ACP Flattop convertibles.

On the other hand, your .45 Schofield sounds VERY good, too. The only thing I would question is the lack of adjustable sights. I have worked with the Ruger large frame Vaqueros a good bit (currently have a very nice Bisley Vaquero in .45 Colt that I shot extensively with black powder in competition as well as similar loads with smokeless using the Lyman 452664 home cast bullet). Being locked in to essentially one load because of fixed sights was not a problem for my particular needs with that revolver, but for a general purpose revolver I NEED adjustable sights).

Frankly, that is my only criticism and I am most interested to see some good range results when you are able to get to the range. We are having a seriously cold winter and it sure is keeping me hanging close. My son just recently sent me some photos of the snow he's getting around his home in Southern Pines, N.C. So, since you are further north, the weather is probably even worse for you.

At any rate, stay safe, and when possible send us some nice photos of your most interesting project!

Dale53

[DougGuy]

Thanks for the interest, I did range test the rather wide array of loads shown in the earlier photo, a lot of them were down in the mouse fart range that's for sure, I had a few that didn't even seal the cases, a few were pretty smoky, but the one day I did shoot it, accuracy wasn't really spectacular with a lot of the ehh so-so loads, but it was good with some of the heavier more towards the upward end of pressure loads.

What I need to do is go back through the targets and single out a few of the best loads, and then see if I can polish those up enough to produce some decent groups. I didn't have much of a spread with some of the boolits that did shoot good. But.. I can tell you what 21.5gr H110 behind one of those LBT 250gr OWC boolits will do to a chrony!

Got lucky and it only grazed the sensor and peeled back some of the metal case, but it was shooting to the sights at a nice 1200fps speed, so this would definitely be a good deer load for the thick woods where shots are seldom over 20yds.

I apologize I didn't get back and update the thread, I was going to wait until another range session to post results and I got busy!

The tail end of my one range session was leaning towards this one being one of those Rugers that don't like to be accurate until it is pushed fairly hard. I have had a couple that just would not do much of nothing until driven hard then they did really well.

[sac]

Sorry to bring up an old post, but I am starting a project of my own.

I want to turn my 45 colt Marlin 94 Into a Scout carbine, and was thinking if I could get to the 23,000 psi like you where looking for, it would make for a very good woods gun with a couple extra rounds. Right now I have been using my old SASS smokless Schofield load of J/P 45-210 with 5.5 of titegroup. It functions great in the marlin and is real accurate out to 50 yards, haven't put them over a crono yet.

Doug I was wondering if you have tried any of the LBT rounds in a rifle or carbine, and if you have how many rounds where you able to load? I would think the WFN bullet would feed better. My 45 colt load is a RCBS 45-270 saa bullet and it feeds the like butter.

Thanks Scott