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Thread: WWII cast boolit history lesson in Herter's reloading manual ? LOL

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    JonB_in_Glencoe's Avatar
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    WWII cast boolit history lesson in Herter's reloading manual ? LOL

    While thumbing through my old Herter's reloading manual, for some info on longitudinal lube grooves for a post in the Swaging forum, I stumbled onto this interesting bit of info, that Ole Goerge just had to include in the cast bullet section.



    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

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    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I knew that Patton was a strange duck but never read an article that called him an ought right coward. Seems that I did read something about him in one of the Blue Press monthly catalogues where he and some other half wits used to 'mexican carry' the 1911. Seems that they got in a running shootout and Patton almost shot his own nutz off by accident. He didn't like the 1911 after that. He was in the Mexican border wars as a fresh Lieutenant working under or with Pershing at the time…I think?

    WWII has some colorful characters for sure…OS OK
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

    Be a Patriot . . . expose their lies!

    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

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    he carried an 1873 in 45 colt when under Pershing.
    he proved himself in that little fracas south of the border.
    airc he killed 3-4 men in one shoot-out when they come riding in to take him and some other men out of action.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Thats an interesting bit of history. I have some 38 special cases with a military headstamp. I also have some fairly modern Remington 38 special ammo that has fmj bullets. I'll have to dig it out and check the headstamp.

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    Boolit Master Victor N TN's Avatar
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    I don't know about since. But in 1972 the US Air Force had to qualify with several different guns. Among them was a 38 revolver.
    Be careful,
    Victor

    Life member NRA

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    For those not familiar, anything written by George L. Herter (including his psuedonyms) must be taken with very large doses of salt.

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    we still had some kicking around in the 80's.
    I got to keep mine in favor over the Beretta 9m until I left in the early 90's.
    sometimes I could carry the 1911 depending on who I was working for/with at the time.

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    While General Patton had his failings, I haven't heard that anybody numbered cowardice among them, or lost face because of his personal armament. My impression is that Herter briefly and quite unreasonably criticized him, but went on to talk about some other and less palatable sort of screwball. I remember seeing pictures of the pistols Patton carried in WW2. It was a long time ago, but one was a Colt SAA (although I believe he had earlier carried a pair), and the other a .357 Magnum. They were ivory handled, nor pearl, and he said that only a New Orleans pimp would carry pearl-handled pistols. I don't know why he singled out New Orleans.

    He was involved in an incident in New York city in peacetime, when he rescued at pistol-point a lady being bundled into a truck by two men, and found out that they were her husband and brother, and she didn't want rescuing. I believe his Mexican shoot-out occurred after climbing a wall into a building, and it might have been a case of if he's dead, he's a Villista. In terms of eccentricity he pales into insignificance with Lieutenant-Colonel "Mad Jack" Churchill (no relation) who always went into battle with bagpipes, longbow and Scottish broadsword, and in the campaign of Dunkirk made the last longbow kill by a British soldier.

    The British decision to use jacketed .38 revolver bullets was taken well before WW2, and for the .455 in 1939. It was most likely early in the year, before they became too busy, and would be hard to attribute to American experience with the Germans. While there are many convincing accounts of the Germans using wooden bullets in the Spandau machine-gun (and no other I know of), they are a lot more likely to splinter harmlessly than horribly. It had a peculiarly high rate of fire, and my theory is that it may have been a device to interrupt the long bursts with which barely trained troops might have depleted the magazine.

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    Herter's is one company that I really miss a lot . I still have one 1973 catalog....wish I had kept more.
    Herter's was the Midway of that era....surprising how much Herter's stuff is for sale on Ebay ! sometimes I just type in Herter's to see what comes up.
    I'm still using their dies ,shell holders , moulds and plastic bullet boxes to this day ! Not to mention the Walnut stocks I used to "fix up " a few military rifles into "sporter's" , sure do miss them !

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    Boolit Master
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    Oh yes indeed, very good at what they do best. But historical information isn't that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
    Herter's is one company that I really miss a lot . I still have one 1973 catalog....wish I had kept more.
    Everything was the latest, greatest and best. Lots of hot air but lots of real cool stuff also.

    Patton was a very interesting man. If George was writing about Patton that was on of his taller tales.

    http://www.history.com/news/10-thing...-george-patton

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton

    http://www.******oftheweek.com/patton.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio_C%C3%A1rdenas
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-29-2016 at 03:12 AM.

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    Boolit Grand Master
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    Patton a coward??
    Most senior officers are behind the lines, but calling Patton a coward is nonsense.

    SHiloh
    Je suis Charlie

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    “If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert , in five years there would be a shortage of sand.” – Milton Friedman

    "Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns; why should we let them have ideas?" - J. Stalin

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    Boolit Buddy paul edward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    Lieutenant-Colonel "Mad Jack" Churchill (no relation) who always went into battle with bagpipes, longbow and Scottish broadsword, and in the campaign of Dunkirk made the last longbow kill by a British soldier.
    Thank you for that reference. I had not heard of Mad Jack. Definitely a colorful character.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    The Herters catalogue was a great read. I have several of the "Herters' Ancient Decoys" decorating my living room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul edward View Post
    Thank you for that reference. I had not heard of Mad Jack. Definitely a colorful character.
    Of course we wouldn't want them all to be like that. We wouldn't want them all to be like anything. In a way Patton was lucky, in finding situations which suited his style, and an enemy no longer in a situation to mould warfare into the opposite of that style. In a way the common comparisons with Montgomery are unfair, for Patton was never in a situation where one big mistake through rashness could have destroyed his country. I think the Germans lost their in four stages. There was letting a third of a million men escape from France; losing the Battle of Britain and sending their army to be worn down in Russia. But it became unwinnable the day the Allies got ashore in force. Still, I wonder if it is true in the George C. Scott movie, that Patton said he and Montgomery were both prima donnas? In a sense they were as alike as two peas. People who invariably do things right and by the book make good staff colonels.

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    It seems that the media has made hero's out of many of the nut-job butcher/cowards that sent masses of young men off to their death.
    I strongly suspect that the person who wrote that article had true knowledge from a different perspective than what was portrayed in the media.
    MacArthur was also supposed to be a hero, the more I learn, the more I wonder how anyone could possibly have portrayed him that way.

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    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    Very amusing article, although I found the writing style a little, shall we say, lacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by varmint243 View Post
    It seems that the media has made hero's out of many of the nut-job butcher/cowards that sent masses of young men off to their death.
    I strongly suspect that the person who wrote that article had true knowledge from a different perspective than what was portrayed in the media.
    MacArthur was also supposed to be a hero, the more I learn, the more I wonder how anyone could possibly have portrayed him that way.
    I believe that is true about his perspective. But I think it was the perspective of deciding who he didn't like on grounds of manner, and then making the evidence fit. Before the internet, even.

    Britain has had redder-handed butchers than the US, such as French and Haig in the First World War. But history is coming around to the view that they were constrained by the resources and knowledge of 1914-16. Trying to do things differently could have invited disaster, and when the war opened up in 1918, Haig convincingly outgeneraled Ludendorff. (It was a shame about 1917, though.) To match them, or more, you would have to look to the Soviet Marshals Budyonny and Voroshilov in 1941-42, who were so stupid that the others noticed. But even Budyonny is now shown by Soviet records to have argued forcefully with Stalin (as somebody devoid of political ambition or ability could do) that he needed to retreat to a better line to avoid disaster. All of these were personally brave men, but high command is a management job.

    McArthur is an odd case. I don't think any general who ever lived could have saved the Philippines at that time. His manner could be unfortunate, but I believe his wife was in the habit of sounding off in public about deficiencies unfit to be mentioned here, which is bound to make a man a bit too concerned with the size of his corncob.

    Churchill was in the White House as resistance on Corregidor crumbled, and showed Roosevelt a copy of his instruction, written in his own hand, to Lord Gort, who had commanded the Dunkirk evacuation. It ordered him, denying him any discretion, that should communication be cut and his force diminish to the equivalent of three divisions, he would hand over to a corps commander nominated by himself, and return to the UK. A few days later Mr. Stimson asked Churchill for a copy, and he says he hoped, but did not know, that it might have influenced the evacuation of McArthur. Lord Gort was by no stretch of the imagination one of the great generals of history, although under terrible stress he didn't get any worse. A man like that, with experience of the new kind of war, was too valuable to lose.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    If you look at the context clues in the text its clear that he is not talking about George Patton. The writer states that he still knows this officer. Since Patton died in late 1945 and this was written in the later 50's, its doubtful the writer would would claim to still know a dead man. Also Patton's father was not a West Point man. He also died in 1927 and would likely not be able to lobby for his sons promotion from beyond the grave. Patton was also pulled from command after the Sicily campaign and sat out the Italian campaign. Not having fought in Italy makes it unlikely that he would have a combat related mental breakdown in Italy.

    All that aside i have also read that the Germans threatened to execute all prisoners captured with shotguns. Was that based on the idea that the 12 gauge was unfair or did it come from the buck shot being technically an all lead projectile?

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    I thought that the shotgun warning was from WWl. They were efficient at clearing trenches.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check