Poor man's double rifle

[victorfox]

If I can get the money in a close future and thing don't sour bad here i might get a Boito (same stoeger coach gun made here) SxS with 26" and fixed chokes and try and build a PMD. I think if I call them they would even install a scope rail, which is standard in the Stoeger/Boito Double Defense... One barrel sighted the other hitting close as a backup would be cool at least.

[Drm50]

One tip I can give when thinking about putting time and money in a double for any project. Find
out what kind of hammer firing pin system the gun has. The cheapest made SxSs are easy to
spot. They actually have the firing pins on the hammer noses. There is no bushings in recoil
shield just holes. Most of these guns I have encountered are soft steel. They end up with all kind
of problems with very little use. If are going to buy a project gun, you will be better off buying a
used American made box lock type, like 311 Stevens. At least US gun will have the bore centered
in the barrel.

[sthwestvictoria]

If are going to buy a project gun, you will be better off buying a
used American made box lock type, like 311 Stevens. At least US gun will have the bore centered
in the barrel.

I have ended up with a Stevens 311 for my project and they seem a good strong gun. The auto tang safety is the only undesired feature. I like the nice wide firewood, unlike some of the European guns which are skinnier.

[sthwestvictoria]

If are going to buy a project gun, you will be better off buying a
used American made box lock type, like 311 Stevens. At least US gun will have the bore centered
in the barrel.

I have ended up with a Stevens 311 and they seem a good strong gun. The auto tang safety is the only undesired feature.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have ended up with a Stevens 311 and they seem a good strong gun. The auto tang safety is the only undesired feature.

The auto safety can be easily defeated, and still work as a manual safety. Most of the cowboy guys do it on their guns.

You can see in this video how the gun works and how the lever activates the Safety as it is opened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6uSaYqAwPQ

By shortening the push rod that moves the safety you deactivate the Auto Safety feature.

Randy

[sthwestvictoria]

The auto safety can be easily defeated, and still work as a manual safety. Most of the cowboy guys do it on their guns.

You can see in this video how the gun works and how the lever activates the Safety as it is opened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6uSaYqAwPQ

By shortening the push rod that moves the safety you deactivate the Auto Safety feature.

Randy

Great link, thanks

[Ballistics in Scotland]

By shortening the push rod that moves the safety you deactivate the Auto Safety feature.

Randy

Yes, this is the push-rod from my sidelock Gibbs, which might be a bit more complex in shape than some, to permit removing the minimum of wood or metal to accommodate it. It was one of the earliest hammerless guns, and in about 120 years had partly deactivated the auto safety all by itself, though wear. Even worse than always or never, the safety sometimes went on and sometimes didn't. You see it with a tiny piece of high speed steel rod silver soldered on but not yet smoothed off, while the part was held between pieces of copper to stop heat from detempering the thin part.

Shotguns usually had an automatic safety, but rifles for dangerous game seldom did. If a pheasant gets past you, you can just grin and bear it. Adhesion can cause damage to the wood on dismantling, and there is no point doing that to get at an operating rod which isn't there.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am working towards completion on mine and it looks like it will work well. Still need to shoot it to see how well the barrels are regulated but no matter what It can't be all bad. The real determining factor will be how close it shoots my Round Ball loads and maybe some of the Federal **** Kicker Slugs I still have a bunch of.

If it is half way close at 50 yards I will be very pleased and the whole project will be a success. At that point I will put Rifle Sights on it, and attach the sling swivels.

Randy

[nekshot]

It will work for sure with one barrel for the site and the other use Kentucky windage!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have been waiting for parts from Numrich to come in but today I did some refinish work on the barrels by buffing them first with wire wheel and then lightly with the fuzz wheel. Then Used some Birchwood Casey's Super Blue to reblue the barrels and I must say they came out quite nice looking.

I resisted the urge to Cerakote this gun (mainly because I haven't built my oven yet) Instead It will have a rejuvenated stock metal finish. The wood is a different story and I literally can't stand the disgusting yellow color of the birch stock and fore end. It will get made some darker color maybe with some "Sharpie Grain Enhancement."

I also drilled and tapped the top rib for the new Hi-Viz green bead I put on the front. I did some bore sighting in the shop and it looks like the barrels might shoot near each other. If they are really close I will put some rifle sight on it. by that I mean within a few inches of each other. If they don't then the beads will be fine.

I also test fit the Limbsaver Slip on Recoil Pad and it fits nice and tight. If you haven't used one of these I have to tell you that you are missing out. They work great and Walmart sells them for $20!

The gun is coming together and all I am waiting on is parts.

Randy

[zgunbear]

My 12 bore gun works. It took some filing and muzzle work I have it shooting a nice group with Lyman 525 grain slugs.



The target is an eight slug group. I am roll crimping them with an antique roll crimper I won on Ebay.

Here is a family portrait of both my doubles. 45-70 Baikal on the bottom and my Thumper on top. I am thinking about having the rib engraved .722 Smooth Bore Express.

[longbow]

When you say "filing and muzzle work" what was your procedure?

I have read that angling the muzzles can bring groups from both barrels together but have not tried it (currently no side by to try it with).

How do you like the Baikal .45-70? What load level is it rated for ~ BP equivalent, Marlin 1895 or modern single shot/bolt action? How is the accuracy?

Thanks,
Longbow

[zgunbear]

I used a machinist level and square to file the muzzles and crowns square. Then I used a carbide pipe deburing tool to chamfer them for a crown and to remove any burrs. After I shot it it the first time the left barrel was shooting a little too far left and high. So I put a little angle on it and then shot it again. They shot side by dide. It seems to work pretty well.

The Baikal can be accurate. There is a jack screw between the barrels. You sight the left barrel in then adjust the right to shot to it. Pressure wise it is rated for lever action level loads. However ut only weighs 7.5 pounds. So it kicks like a upset mule. I am loading a 405 grain hard cast flat point in it over 30 grains of IMR 4198. If I do my part it will shot a 10 shot hand size group at 50 yards and minute of pig and deer at 100.

[victorfox]

Sorry for pestering, but how this angle thing works and how it's done? I can foresee a SxS in my future and would like to know how to tune it for slugs. Thanks!

[zgunbear]

You are not pestering. I really guess i got lucky. There were no calculations. Also think in thousandths of an inch. Basically you would b e trying to get the gas pressure to push in a slightly different angle. One of the other range officers who has won the natinal black powfer pustol title put it this way, if the patch is slightly off center the gas seal leaks and the ball veers off. So if the slug or ball is hitting high left from the left barrel I took a few passes with the file on the left barrel at the 11 o'clock position and then made the chamfer for the crown more pronounced there. That pushed the slug or ball to the right and down enough that it shots next to the right. Remember that the gas is very high pressure and velocity a small change can have a big effect.

[victorfox]

Wow this is cool and interesting! Thanks for explaining.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Excellent tip as I am about to start shooting my "Poor Mans Double" that was resurrected from a Savage 311. I posted some pics on my thread a week or so ago but nobody cared. The gun came out nice and if it shoots decent I will put rifle sights on it for sure.

And regulating the barrels is told by zgunbear sounds very logical, and is exactly what I will try on mine.

Also his slug loads look real nice, and that is how shotshell reloads should look.

Randy

[zgunbear]

Before you cut barrels and start regulating take two unprimed shotgun hulls anf chamber them
Take the barrels off the receiver and secure it to a bench. Line the bead up on a target at 25 yards. Then look through the primer holes like a peep sight they shpuld both point generally in yhe direction of the target. They shoild be a little low. The right should point a little low left and the left a little low right. If they are pointing equidistant from the target on the correct side you have a good chance it will regulate with a little work

[victorfox]

Zgunbear, that's smart! I'll see if I can get a cheap used one to play...

Randy, I must be getting old earlier, I thought I commented on your PMD... It turned out beautiful, but I kind liked the sanded stage, where it was very light colored, resembling ivory. +1 on your work.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Sorry for pestering, but how this angle thing works and how it's done? I can foresee a SxS in my future and would like to know how to tune it for slugs. Thanks!

Attachment 176606


Here is a drawing I made many years ago, to show how recoil works. When a bomb of the anarchist persuasion is intact, the pressure acths equally on all sides of the inside. The thrust of the gases can't impart acceleration to any part of it, because it is balanced. But when it gives way on the left, the fragments and gases go their separate ways. The fragments and gases are hurled to the left by that thrust. The rest of the bomb, no longer restrained by being all of a piece with the leftward-impelled part, is hurled to the right.

If you file the muzzles of a double gun to an arrowhead shape (a phrase which should be a gross exaggeration), a gap opens on the outside side of the muzzle before the inside. Gas escapes there first, so the other side of the barrel is pushed in the direction of the rib between them. If you file the muzzles in the opposite way, so that the centre is further back than the outsides, the axes of the bore are pushed inwards.

It works, up to a point. Besides looking ugly, too much of a bevel is likely to set up a wobble and/or base damage in the bullet. I have always wondered whether drilling a small hole into the barrel wall would do better, in the side for inward displacement, or a couple just above and below the rib for outward. But I have never heard of anyone doing it.

That is the principle that is used to eliminate recoil altogether in recoilless rifles, which make a rather piffling little artillery piece man-portable, and infinitely superior to having no artillery piece at all. One problem (which might have been overcome with space-age ceramics if guided missiles hadn't improved on them) is erosion of the holes, so that the gun will eventually "recoil" forwards. But I don't think shotgun terminal pressure will do that.

An interesting quirk is that alteration of the muzzle depends on, and varies with, terminal pressure. The orthodox method, adjusting the barrel convergence, depends on recoil thrust multiplied by bore time.

Common practice with shotguns was to have the barrels aiming to the same point of aim at about sixty feet, adjusted somewhat according to anticipated recoil. In medium to high priced guns that would usually be checked and adjusted by test firing with the barrels just brazed at the breech and set by soft-soldered packing pieces, before the ribs are soldered in.