Poor man's double rifle

[gunauthor]

I have an old shotgun (a King Nitro) that I want to "convert" to a double rifle (a smooth bore). It has regular steel barrels (not damascus) but is old (still locks up nice and tight), so I want to use low pressure slug loads. I cast both Lee slugs, the 7/8 and 1 ounce. Any ideas on loads for this old warhorse would be a big help.

[Hogtamer]

How's it choked?

[waarp8nt]

I have a nice load for 20ga slugs, but I assume by the weight your loading 12 gauge.

[gunauthor]

Sorry for missing some details. Yes, it is a 12 gauge and the barrels have been shortened enough to remove any choke.

[longbow]

You might try using a load like the reduced recoil load here:

http://slugsrus.com/page35.html

Most slug recipes are loaded to high pressure seeking high performance but there are some reduced recoil slug recipes and you can also use shot load recipes for equal weight shot ~ 7/8 or 1 oz. target loads. Not all target loads are low pressure but most manuals list pressure so you can pick and choose.

Not sure if BPI has any low pressure or subsonic loads listed but Metro Gun does ~ though not sure of pressure and both are for 1 1/4 oz. so maybe not too helpful but...:

http://www.metrogun.com/handloads.html

Hodgdon has lots of low pressure listings too and many new since I last looked:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun

Lots of low pressure recipes for Federal Gold Medal hulls listed right down to 4600 PSI. Actually there are several hulls with recipes for WAALite that are quite low pressure.

Longbow

[victorfox]

Well you didn't ask it but I'm going to give my rusty 2c... Most double barrels crossfire at certain distance because of barrels not being regulated to same POI. This is not a great issue with a shot pattern but it pays to learn where each barrel shoots a ball or a slug at known distance to see what to expect in hunting for example. Or shoot looking over each individual barrel LOL

[frkelly74]

So are you thinking of getting liners and installing them in the bores? I thought about 45ACP or colt liners and installing them in the bore of a 20 ga. That is the wild idea currently rattlin around my noggin.

[Rustyleee]

If you look over on Shotgunworld.com they have a section set aside just for slugs.

[sthwestvictoria]

What about the sighting system?
i have been thinking about something like this this Williams WGRS-M/L rear sight which has a flat base for a drill and tap to the rib:



Or, given that it is a poor mans double, you could use the Junior Doherty $2 peep:
http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/rr.htm

[StrawHat]

In one of the old Gun Digest books there was an article titled, "Poor Man's Double" or similar and the author did just what you are talking about doing. He cut the barrels at added a set of sights. As I recall he used factory ammunition and it hit fine at hunting ranges.

He also added a sling to carry it. Not sure what year the issue was and my "collection" of the Digests is long gone but maybe this will jog someone's memory and they can provide a scan for you.

Kevin

[sthwestvictoria]

In one of the old Gun Digest books there was an article titled, "Poor Man's Double" or similar and the author did just what you are talking about doing. He cut the barrels at added a set of sights. As I recall he used factory ammunition and it hit fine at hunting ranges.

[jaguarxk120]

The best thing to do now is spend some range time with cheaper slug loads and a large sheet of paper at 50 yards.

As said before the barrels will cross at some distance. Generally SxS shotguns are "regulated" to pattern both barrels at 40 yards.

So starting at 50 yards will give you some idea where each barrel is shooting, just keep track of your shots.

Remember double rifles are not used at long range, generally under 100 yards.

[victorfox]

sthwestvictoria thanks for the article. Here's one post from a fellow OZ, Marrakai: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...p?Number=60524 .Jaguarxk120, there's an Spanish firm, Ugartechea, that makes a sweet double named Jabali (wild boar) regulated to shoot brennekes at 50yds if I remember right. I love the looks of their guns. I think there's a seller in America just can't remember the name.Boy I love them doubles, since I can't afford them to collect, I collect pictures....kind of sick uh?

[gunauthor]

Thanks to one and all. I plan on using the "rifle" primarily for plinking, but may try it for deer or hogs.

[FullTang]

Here's a simple strategy: look at any of the major powder company manuals and you'll usually find a section on "International" loads. Alliant has a separate section in their manual that's especially useful for this. These are target (shot) loads for Olympic-style competition with 24 gram (7/8 oz) and 28 gram (1 oz) loads, all running at the International standard of 1345 fps. You can use any of the 24 gram loads for your 7/8 oz slug, and the 28 gram loads for your 1 oz slug, and you'll get a nice, medium-power, economical load. The pressures are generally modest (and you can always back off 1/2-1 grain if you'd like) and they've been shown by the epic work of Turbo1889 to shoot at even lower pressures with slugs vs shot ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...d-Substituting ). There's a wide variety of components listed, so you can start with what you've got and find what works best in your gun. Since there is a wide variation in bore diameters, some trial and error is needed, but this method gives you loads which use less powder and burn cleaner than most of the published slug loads you'll find, especially the ones that come with the Lee molds.

[StrawHat]

[QUOTE=sthwestvictoria;3628340]



That's the one! Thanks for finding it.

Kevin

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A basic principle of designing shotguns down to a weight is that barrels and action should be about equally resistant to pressure. One of those two being stronger is pure waste of weight if the other goes first. It is a bit like wearing belt and suspenders. They both have to grip your pants equally, or they can give one at a time as easily as one alone could do.

Barrels are there to be seen - mostly - but shotgun actions are made of quite different metals. Good case-hardened mild steel is pretty strong - and was at the end of the nineteenth century as it is now. But modern actions made of investment cast alloy steel are stronger. I long ago read an article by a man who made a high pressure rifle from a Ruger Red Label over and under, I think a .45-70 for loads short only of what you would confine to rifles like the Ruger No1. I think he used a 20ga., and if I did it with a double, I believe I would go to something like the .50-70 to get rid of some of the weight.

On action design, a sidelock puts more metal in the vulnerable spot (just under the face of the standing breech) than a boxlock. A back-action lock is better than a barlock with its spring and plate requiring a recess in the action. A rather obvious point is that a bolted top extension adds to the strength. One with a round crossbolt is better than a square crossbolt, the doll's head type is very little use, and an extension locked solely by a bolt fitting into its rear edge is no use whatever. The trouble is, most makers gave up the top extension when they went over to modern steel, making it even less necessary than before in shotgun use, so it is mostly confined to mild steel actions.

The back action lock is mostly though not totally confined to hammer guns. Here is a deceptive example, my Belgian Pieper 24ga, in which the lock stops at the screw under the crossbolt.


On barrels, the author of that article is right on barrels of 18-20in. being acceptable on a slug shotgun, and they aren't bad on many double rifles. But I wouldn't shorten shotgun barrels that much without checking them on a proper gunsmith's dial gauge. Their contour is concave in a fore and aft direction, and sometimes extreme shortening will reveal them to be paper-thin. The better the gun, the more likely this is, since those who made guns by less skilled labour or on pre-CNC machines were less sure of getting the thickness exactly as planned.

The best makers regulated shotguns too, and it often worked to a degree that would do justice to a deer if they delivered a pattern of one shot. As much recoil as you can live with in a shotgun isn't exactly the same as about as much recoil as you can stand when it is a rifle, when it comes to regulating the points of impact. But it may not be that bad regulation. I never knew the exact caliber of my Bohemian double muzzle-loader, which had spent the last century or so as a 14ga smoothbore. The only giveaways on its original rifleship were a round patchbox, a detachable knob to screw onto the hand end of the ramrod, and a single set trigger on the right barrel that said "Eureka!" to me when I found it. But I sleeved it with liner tubes made for .50-70, and it fires both barrels very close when loaded with the .50-70 bullet.

But regulation is another good reason not to shorten the barrels unduly. It might seem to make sense to lighten the barrels that way, when you are making them heavier by sleeving them. But breech-loading double barrels are brazed or silver soldered together at the breech, pointing in a direction which is the maker's best guess at perfect alignment. Thereafter they are flexed slightly for the final alignment to be arrived at by soft soldering in packing pieces and ribs. Much shortening may enable them to spring back again, and point slightly differently from where they pointed before.

[Jackpine]

As a double rifle, it would really be cool to have folding, three leaf express sights. That are probably more expensive to buy, than would be practical, on a poor man's rifle, but you could fabricate.

Just a thought.

[nekshot]

Go for it! I did and I really am glad I followed my instincts because plenty of naysayers will tell you why you should not. I put 303 barrels in mine. If I would be happy using the guns bore as is I would make the front and rear sight(easy with softer metal) and sight the one barrel in on the sight. The other barrel would work up close or out to 50 yards. After 50 use the sight and its barrel or use Kentucky windage. Mine is in the archive here with same title. Dubber did one also and his is very nice.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

With .303 you would have to be very particular about the sort of shotgun you used, including the size of the firing-pins. But it could be done, and would be an excellent rifle.

There are probably still various leaf sights available from Brownells, but they used to be expensive. If I was trying to fabricate one, I think it might be better to groove rather than drill the base, and silver solder in place pieces of steel capillary tubing. I think it is always stainless, but such tiny pieces, heated and unpolished, ought to be quite inconspicuous. You could even cannibalise veterinary hypodermic needles, which come in sizes that would make your eyes water.

Here is another kind of sight that might be worth considering:

http://www.skinnersights.com/hepburn_28.html

Apart from the balance of safety and velocity being quite complex enough, regulating the barrels by varying the powder charge doesn't work very well. Like making a revolver shoot higher or lower, the increased recoil impulse is about balanced out by the bullet leaving the muzzle earlier in the process. Varying the bullet weight works better.