and yet another question

[M-Tecs]

I suppose it depends on how meticulous you want to be, and what your end goal is.

50fps is a huge deal to me, and probably any long range shooter.

When you are trying to hold 1/4" elevation at 1,000 yard 50 fps is huge to me also.

[Lloyd Smale]

I cant ever remember having to worry about 1/4 elevation at a 1000 yards with any cast bullet gun. 1000 yard shooting has so much drop that its a game of knowing your load, trajectory and having an accurate load. 50fps just means learning a different trajectory curve. Guys shoot 308s at a 1000 yards and wont give them up for a 300 mag that's 400fps faster. but then I guess if it does matter to you it does.

[M-Tecs]

50 fps standard deviation in a specific load at 1,000 yards will give you elevation issues. 50 fps doesn't show at 200 yard but it becomes very apparent at a 1,000.

With a Sierra 30 175 MatchKing moving at 2600 verses 2650 you get 18 inches more drop at a 1,000 yard or 1.8 moa. To be competitive in F class or bench you need to hold 1/2" or better for elevation (5 inches at a 1,000 yards). For position matches you need 1 MOA or better to be competitive. While I do shoot BPCR at a 1,000 I am not serious enough about it to comment on what is and isn't competitive other that knowing I am not.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and the difference is a couple more clicks on your elevation turrent if you know your gun. Its why accurate 308s still compete in 1000 yards shooting next to flatter shooting guns. Using 175s I would guess you have a bigger problem in them going subsonic before a 1000 yards then anything. Kind of why the 308 guys tend to go with 155s. At least that's what I'm told by guys who do it. Personally I worry about a max of 600 yards because that's a far. Were getting a bit off topic here so ill say good by to this one.

50 fps standard deviation in a specific load at 1,000 yards will give you elevation issues. 50 fps doesn't show at 200 yard but it becomes very apparent at a 1,000.
With a Sierra 30 175 MatchKing moving at 2600 verses 2650 you get 18 inches more drop at a 1,000 yard or 1.8 moa. To be competitive in F class or bench you need to hold 1/2" or better for elevation (5 inches at a 1,000 yards). For position matches you need 1 MOA or better to be competitive. While I do shoot BPCR at a 1,000 I am not serious enough about it to comment on what is and isn't competitive other that knowing I am not.

[M-Tecs]

Getting off topic is one issue but the real issue is we are not talking about the same thing. You claim that bullet coatings increase velocity, however, you have been unable to provide in documented instance were this is the case.

I do not have the knowledge or experience to comment on any coatings other that Moly, Danzac and HBN on jacketed bullets in rifles chambered in .223, 22-250AI, 220 Swift, 6mm XC, 240 NM, 243 Win, 260 Rem, 6.5 x 284, 308 and 300 Win, Mag. In every case the MV was lower for coated bullet verse non coated bullets with the variable being the coated bullets. Same for everyone else's experience and data. You are initialed to your opinion but it contradicted everyone's experience and data.

Under three hundred yard loads with surprisingly high SD's group very well, these same loads will not cut it at long range due to the lack of ability to hold elevation due to the high SD's.

The current king of the hill bullet for 1,000 competition in 308's is the Berger 185 grain Juggernaut.http://buybergerbullets.3dcartstores...rget_p_69.html

The 155 was the max weight allowed for Palma matches at one time. The only time 155 are preferred is when the rule don't allow for heavier or you are shooting a shorter barreled rifle that can't keep heavier bullets super sonic at 1,000.

As pointed out earlier a 50 FPS SD will give you a 18 inch POI difference. This is not acceptable or competitive thus the large amount of data collected to develop long range loads. Lots of data collected none of switch supports your claim of high velocity with coatings.

Now you are arguing about issues no one broached. I don't believe it's due a lack of understanding on your part but it's just a desire to argue.

yup and the difference is a couple more clicks on your elevation turrent if you know your gun.

Maybe all those years of Long Range competition were a waste and I failed to learn how to predict MV. Please tell me how to do this? When I am shooting my 308 Palma rifle with a load that has a SD of 50 FPS per your claim of "know your gun" how do I predict what the MV with be so I can adjust of the SD of 50 FPS?????

[Lloyd Smale]

I was told that a 308 wont keep a 175 super sonic at a 1000 yards. Is that wrong? I'm not a 1000 yard shooter and was just passing on what I was told. Is it so close that that 50 fps would make it subsonic and fly funny so that that 50 fps couldn't be compensated for with just a few clicks of the elevation turret. I'm here to learn if you have actual experience. As to coatings increasing or decreasing velocity I think its been showed here that for 99 percent of us the difference is a non issue that is less then the difference of that two identical rifles in the same caliber can show with the same load. I do agree with you that it doesn't take much to get decent accuracy at 300 yards. Even my experience which is limited to 600 yards shows that MANY loads at 300 fail miserably at 600 so I'm sure its really amplified at a 1000.

[M-Tecs]

I was told that a 308 wont keep a 175 super sonic at a 1000 yards. Is that wrong? .

Yes that is incorrect. The 173 FMJ M118 Special ball, M118LR and Federal Match with 175 grain matchkings don't have a problem staying supersonic at a 1,000 in the M-14 with a 20 inch barrel.

M852 or Federal Match ammo with 168's out of 20" M14 will not stay supersonic at a 1,000. With longer Match rifle barrels you can push the 168's hard enough to stay supersonic at a 1,000. The Sierra 168 bullet was developed for 300 meter International shooting.

[Lloyd Smale]

beauty of this place. Even after all these years I still can learn things on here.

Yes that is incorrect. The 173 FMJ M118 Special ball, M118LR and Federal Match with 175 grain matchkings don't have a problem staying supersonic at a 1,000 in the M-14 with a 20 inch barrel.

M852 or Federal Match ammo with 168's out of 20" M14 will not stay supersonic at a 1,000. With longer Match rifle barrels you can push the 168's hard enough to stay supersonic at a 1,000. The Sierra 168 bullet was developed for 300 meter International shooting.