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Thread: I WAS going to buy a "new" Inland Manufacturing Carbine.

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    I WAS going to buy a "new" Inland Manufacturing Carbine.

    After a great deal of research, I determined that they are little more than "dressed up" Auto Ordnance/Kahr carbines. (Talk about a disappointment). I have changed my mind and will be saving my shekels for an James River Armory "Rock-Ola" M1 Carbine. Since both the receivers and bolts are milled from billet steel, their longevity should be substantially longer. Yes, it will run me $1300.00 but with a Criterion barrel, the better accuracy provided by all of the parts working in concert should be worth the expense.

    About the cast boolits being fired in the M1 Carbine. What kind of alloy would you recommend so that some expansion at the boolit's meplat can be attained? Is this possible, or is it just a pipe dream?

    Say it isn't so!
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


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    For $1300 I would find a real M1 Carbine. All matching #s and like new bore.

    Who cares about a remake at that cost barrel maker or not. IMHO

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    What concerns me is metal fatigue. When a Carbine is 70+ years old, the receiver may not be as trustworthy as it was in 1945. When you buy a USGI Carbine, you are buying a "pig in a poke". I'll be required to save $200.00 each and every month from August 2016 until February 2017. I have no idea of what will be available or in what kind of condition the rifle will be. The prices will continue to rise because of the finite number of Carbines on the market. These uncertainties make buying a "war baby" quite risky.

    If one were to recreate the original M1 Carbines today, the forged (and carefully) heat treated receivers, forged trigger group parts, forged (and carefully) heat treated bolts, hand-cut barrels and hand fitting of parts would push the price of a "new" USGI M1 Carbine into the $4000.00 range. How can an individual afford that?

    The only reason they were made as well as they were was through the support of the US Government. The sacrifice of the entire nation made this possible.

    These are my reasons behind selecting the James River Armory M1 Carbine. If I wanted to wait until April of 2017 to order (then wait 14 weeks for delivery) I would turn to Fulton Armory and pay $1600.00 for one of their hand-built Carbines.
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    For $1300.00 you would be assured of buying an original M1 Carbine in excellent condition (well, not a Rock-Ola for $1300). I bought a 1943 Inland a couple of years ago for less than half that $1300.00. Mechanically perfect, Parkerizing perfect, bore looked unshot (never any corrosive USGI .30 Carbine ammo issued, it was always a non-corrosive primed ammo). The only "problem" with the carbine was the stock was a commercial replacement - not a problem except for a collector. This is a pistol caliber cartridge, there are lots of older rifles still shooting which are older and use high pressure ammo - e.g. 1903, '98 Mauser, even the '88 Commission rifles are still shooting with current, and hotter loaded, 8x57 European ammo appropriate for converted .323 bore rifles). Your fears about an original rifle suffering a stress fatigue related failure are unfounded. Not impossible, but unlikely. It would be equally likely to have a failure of a new rifle for a missed internal imperfection in the receiver or other metal part.

    That you want a new rifle is fine, but don't discount the originals for your stated reasons.

    P.S. I regularly shoot my 1872 NYSM Remington Rolling Block .50-70 rifles. I have a number of firearms which are significantly older than my 1943 M1 Carbine and still shooting with original full load level reloads.
    Ed

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  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Has anyone had any problems with the Auto Ordnance/Kahr, or new Inland carbines with the presumably investment cast receivers? How many thousands of rounds would it take to wear one of these out?

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Done correctly there is nothing wrong with a cast receiver. Ruger casts almost all of their parts, including their revolver frames and they aren't known for being weak or wearing out. BFR's are cast, and I am pretty sure Freedom Arms are too. If machined correctly and heat treated to spec, I imagine you would die of old age before wearing one out.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    What "pistol cartridge" operates at 38,500 psi? The 9 x 23 does, but it was introduced in 1992. The .30 Carbine is not a pistol/revolver cartridge. Every time it is fired in either a pistol or revolver there is a large muzzle blast and fireball. This is caused by unburned propellant, resulting in a substantial power loss.

    Let's end the erroneous assertion that "the .30 Carbine is a pistol cartridge" here and now. It is not now, nor has ever been a "pistol cartridge".

    Thank you.
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm
    You'll find quite a few pistol cartridges in that range.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm
    You'll find quite a few pistol cartridges in that range.
    In 1938? No, sorry.
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain O View Post
    In 1938? No, sorry.
    How is the date relevant? It was designed for the M1 carbine but fits well in the 'pistol' class.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    How is the date relevant? It was designed for the M1 carbine but fits well in the 'pistol' class.
    The "hot" pistol cartridges came 45-50 years later and aren't throwing out a big fireball of propellant that should have been used in an 18 inch barrel. It is not a pistol/revolver cartridge, though it has been misused in this fashion. The parent cartridge case was the .32 Winchester Self Loading rifle cartridge. The .30 Carbine is a "light rifle" cartridge and was designated as such by the War Department in 1941. This is factual as I have seen the original edict from the War Department as a "light rifle" designed as a Personal Defense Weapin for the "rear echelon" troops to "bridge the gap" between the .45 ACP and the .30 US Rifle Cartridge in the M1 Garand (A.K.A. the .30-'06). These were never designed to be used in the short barrel of a handgun, because the .45 ACP never broke 15,000 psi.

    Read you history books before making statements, please. I have done my research.
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    9x19 (Luger/Parabellum) introduced in 1902.
    357 magnum introduced in 1935.
    Both operate in the 35,000 psi range. Call them what you want, heck call your M1 a 'light rifle' if it makes you and the War Department feel better but don't labor under the misperception that it is anything more than a pistol cartridge. In fact, my .357 1894 Marlin will smoke your .30 carbine by about 200 fps… and it's just a lowly pistol cartridge.
    The whole point was, your chamber pressure is not so high as to render wartime carbines dangerous to fire with modern ammunition or reloads or anything else within SAAMI spec for the cartridge. Buy what you want, spend as much as you wish, but it doesn't sound as if you understand what you're looking for. .30 Carbine is effective against aggressive humans and medium-sized game animals but don't kid yourself about its awesome ballistics.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  13. #13
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    When I read the first post in this thread, I honestly had no idea that AutoOrnance/Kahr and now the new Inland, had quality control problems. But from the amount of complaints I have recently seen, these firearms really do suffer from very poor heat treatment. My mistake was believing that since Ruger had been making a very similar high pressure rifle (Mini-14) for 40 years on investment cast parts, others would do so easily. Evidently not.

    I only came across this thread about the new M-1 Inlands a day or so ago. My questions are answered.

    http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=53708

    If Captain O wants a brand new rifle, and not a 70 year old rifle, I wish him the best.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkbug View Post
    When I read the first post in this thread, I honestly had no idea that AutoOrnance/Kahr and now the new Inland, had quality control problems. But from the amount of complaints I have recently seen, these firearms really do suffer from very poor heat treatment. My mistake was believing that since Ruger had been making a very similar high pressure rifle (Mini-14) for 40 years on investment cast parts, others would do so easily. Evidently not.

    I only came across this thread about the new M-1 Inlands a day or so ago. My questions are answered.

    http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=53708

    If Captain O wants a brand new rifle, and not a 70 year old rifle, I wish him the best.
    James River Armory manufactures both their receivers and bolts by milling them from 8620 billet steel. This, and USGI tolerances is what makes the difference between something that may shoot for many years to come, and something that will. (It's worth the extra money).

    The problem with buying a USGI rifle is that unless you have gauges, the information, and immediate access to more than one rifle, you're going to play the devil running here and there from one individual to another. I discovered that CPM won't be bringing in anymore M1 Carbines and Obama has seen fit not to let in any more of the "war babies" that are in decent shape.

    JSnover: How long have you been shooting your beloved .357 Magnum in a self loading rifle? Wait, it isnt? It weighs over 6 pounds while the .30 Carbine weighs 5.4 pounds? It carries only 8 rounds, while the .30 Carbine carries a minimum of 10, and usually carries a 15 round magazine? It can even use a 30 round M2 magazine? That's an impediment. When the Marlin 1894 .357 Lever action can be reloaded in 3 seconds with another 10, 15 or 30 round magazine that quickly, be sure to let me know, won't you?
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I'm aware of the differences between the two firearms as well as the fact that both are carbines and if I ever need to fire a pistol cartridge through a freakishly long barrel and call it a 'light rifle'… never mind, I don't see the need. I own a FAL (that's a 7.62x51 semiautomatic to you noobs) for serious .30 caliber engagements.
    In reference to your earlier question, how many 'light rifles' operate at 50,000-60,000 psi? Quite a few and they make the .30 carbine look like the relative pipsqueak that it is. FWIW I've shot a few and they didn't impress me.
    You took issue with the ballistics of your favorite cartridge and I explained how wrong you were about that. That turned out to be an inconvenient truth for you, so you redirected to a discussion about operating systems. I'll put my FAL and my 1894 up against your M1 carbine any day of the week and by the time we're finished you'll probably understand these things a lot better.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    I'm aware of the differences between the two firearms as well as the fact that both are carbines and if I ever need to fire a pistol cartridge through a freakishly long barrel and call it a 'light rifle'… never mind, I don't see the need. I own a FAL (that's a 7.62x51 semiautomatic to you noobs) for serious .30 caliber engagements.
    In reference to your earlier question, how many 'light rifles' operate at 50,000-60,000 psi? Quite a few and they make the .30 carbine look like the relative pipsqueak that it is. FWIW I've shot a few and they didn't impress me.
    You took issue with the ballistics of your favorite cartridge and I explained how wrong you were about that. That turned out to be an inconvenient truth for you, so you redirected to a discussion about operating systems. I'll put my FAL and my 1894 up against your M1 carbine any day of the week and by the time we're finished you'll probably understand these things a lot better.
    I won't waste my time with you. The M1 Carbine isn't a full-sized battle rifle. (Apples and oranges). The lever action isn't quick enough for modern warfare (and hasn't been since the advent of self loading rifles). It's as heavy as an AR (which is still heavier than an M1 Carbine by 9/10 of a pound).

    The frontier closed in 1890. Self-loading rifles are faster and hits matter more than power. Sorry, but when it comes to a gunfight, your lever action rifle is as "out of mode" as a Model A is on a modern race track.

    More power is great, but rapid, accurately placed shots are what count.
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    You didn't get the answers you wanted so you decided everyone else was wrong. You'll obviously waste your time and your money, which is your right.
    Good luck.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    You didn't get the answers you wanted so you decided everyone else was wrong. You'll obviously waste your time and your money, which is your right.
    Good luck.
    I already have a .357 Magnum lever-action rifle and a bolt action .308. How much does your FAL .308 weigh, 11 pounds? That sounds real practical for a Home Defense/Personal Defense rifle. (A WW2 M1 Garand is a pound heavier). I'll send you a bayonet for your next frontal attack. Are you planning an assault from your bedroom?
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
    You didn't get the answers you wanted so you decided everyone else was wrong. You'll obviously waste your time and your money, which is your right.
    Good luck.
    JSnover, meet Captain Oblivious. If they start making Carbines in .32 ACP himself over visions of how effective all those fast accurate shots are. Sorry for interjecting, you seemed to be doing fine on your own.
    Last edited by Preacher Jim; 05-08-2016 at 09:37 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubber123 View Post
    JSnover, meet Captain Oblivious. If they start making Carbines in .32 ACP he will himself over visions of how effective all those fast accurate shots are. Sorry for interjecting, you seemed to be doing fine on your own.
    Thanks for hijacking the thread. An 11 pound rifle doesn't seem as if it's a "jump up and grab it at 3:00 a.m." affair. Of course dubber123, you're perfect, so don't worry about it. The busybodies and know-it-alls come out of the woodwork and proclaim their superiority.
    Last edited by Preacher Jim; 05-08-2016 at 09:39 PM.
    "Faster than a speeding insult, more powerful than an ulterior motive, able to leap to conclusions in a single bound... it's Captain Obvious!
    "Living well is the best revenge" - George Herbert.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final". - Wyatt Earp

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check