Casting techniques.....vive la difference

[BruceB]

In the last couple of days,there have been a few comments made about casting methods that I happen to use, and I think I'm gonna hold up my side of the discussion here.

In the thread about Bullplate lube on the Swapping and Selling forum, reference is made to "beating" and "clubbing" moulds. Now, I use a light plastic mallet to open the sprue plate on every mold I own, every time I do any casting at all. This "mallet" (my term) is about four ounces in head weight, and I suppose I've used it exclusively for about 15 or 20 years so far....a good third of the head is worn away.

I have moulds here that I've owned for twenty years or more, too, including some of the very earliest Lee aluminum jobs. I have NEVER, repeat, NEVER, "beaten" a mould into uselessness. Nor have I ever "worn out" a Lee mould. The energy applied to cutting the sprue is nicely calculated to ONLY cut the sprue, and has zero effect on the mould itself. If a "gloved hand" works for you for opening a mould, that's fine, but I can assure you that a judiciously-applied impact ALSO works without damaging anything.

Another notable point arising in the comments is the temperature of casting, and speed of production (a subject dear to my heart, as most here know). Bullshop has developed a technique for casting somewhere around 650 degrees or less with WW, and cutting sprues in the semi-solid state. It works for him, and his rate is impressive....about 250 boolits from a one-banger in an hour, I believe he said.

His is a very different method from mine, where I run the furnace at max temperature (870 degrees) and water-cool the sprue immediately once it has solidified. Using this method for a timed thirty minutes with a Lee single-cavity mould, I made 159 good bullets....highly comparable to Bullshop's lower-temp 250-or-so in an hour, I'd say. 400 to 500 per hour (or more) is easily accomplished with a 2-cavity mould.

Part of the reason behind this post was the lead-smearing topic. There is simply NO smearing of lead in any of my moulds when operated as I do. One of my moulds is a single-cavity Ebay Lyman 429303, and some previous owner opened up the sprue hole with (I swear!) a 5/16" drill bit and a 60-degree countersink...it is FUGLY. Even with that extreme-diameter sprue-hole, I get no smearing under the plate or on the mould. Works for me.

I reckon it just goes to show that there are different ways to the same end. I'm quite happy with the quality of the bullets I produce, and those to whom I've sent trial lots of various designs also seem satisfied with my results. Looking at Bullshop's photos, I'm sure he'd say exactly the same thing about his, because they sure do look fine.

[SharpsShooter]

That's what makes this board unique. There are many ways to accomplish a given task and by trial and error, each individual finds the answer that works best for them. I use a gloved hand myself to cut sprues, mainly because the glove is already on my hand and it is one less thing (the mallet) to pick up.

[NVcurmudgeon]

As a grateful recipient of some of BruceB's "trial lots," and a viewer of his casting technique in action, I can say that mould abuse does not occur at his hands. Another skilled caster of my aquaintance uses the smallest wooden mallet I have ever seen, and he has many Lee moulds. I have loaned moulds to these two gentlemen alchemists, and borrowed theirs in turn. My own choice for a mould "mallet" is a very small rawhide hammer of the finest
English craftsmanship. I am sure that the gloved hand school has merit,
too. Any technique can be harmless or brutal, depending on the care of the operator.

[Bullshop]

BruceB
I was wondering when you would get in. As has already been said by somone there is always more than one way. I know your way works because I have read from too many satisfied users for it not to.
I used to do the same thing myself but with a slight twist. I taped two Q-tips together and set them in a tuna can with a bit of water. That worked good for two cavity Lyman molds.
I also ran the pot real hot and thought it neccessary. I did it that way for many years and for all those years I had some molds that simply would not cast a good boolit out of straight WW. Some did just fine but others just would not without adding tin in some form.
As you know adding tin is adding $ and one goal for all of us is to keep the cost down.
Straight WW alloy is about perfect for 95% of everything I make eather air cooled or quenched hardened but the boolit has to be of high quality or I get no repeat customers.
The two major differences I have found with the method I am using are first and most importantly every mold I have will now make perfectly clean sharp well filled boolits from straight WW.
I am amaised by it and admit I dont understand why but it works.
Molds that I have used for years and had just come to accept the previously thought fact that they simply would not work satisfacterly with WW are now doing just that. The differance is so profound I can hardly believe it myself.
The other big difference I have noticed is that molds that have been somewhat stubern about dropping thier boolits have suddenly become more user friendly. Most now drop thier boolit just by opening the blocks. The ones that dont get a gentil tap on the rear end of the handle and come out very easily.
This has improved things for me so much that I cant help to crow about it a bit.
I have been targeting your proven method as a comparison but never ment offence by it in any way.
As NVcurmudgeon summed up in the last sentance of his post the operator of any system determins what is brutal or harmless. I have read some sad posts of the early demise of molds brought on by a lack of understanding and a heavy hand.
One point I would like to make is that with whatever method of casting anyone uses a mold of any material has to be lubed in some way and I know you will agree with that.
The lube I am offering for sale is by far the best thing I have ever used for that purpose. I have for a number of years been buying and using the sprue plate lube from NEI and it works good. I have been worried about it not being available at some point not knowing how stable the company now is.

That is the reason I set about to find a replacment, and it turns out the replacment is better.
No offence ever intended friend, I hold you in very high regard here and enjoy hearing what you have to say.
BIC/BS

[mroliver77]

After reading Bruce B's article on speed casting a year or two ago I gave it a try. I was already a believer in a hot pot for most of my casting. I now use my version of the Bruce B method for most of my casting. It works very well for me. I use a "club" to cut most sprues.(Actually I run quit a few 6 bangers these days) I have a 2 diameter stick turned from hickory that is pretty large. I have carpal tunnal and cutting with gloved hand does not work for long. The large stick is easy to hold and requires a very light hand to use it. I use one mold at a time with mold staying in left hand and stick in right. Lead pot is at 12:00 from me and wet rag/pan is at 11:00. quench bucket is at 9:00 on top of stool that puts top of bucket at same height as mold when being filled. Sprue collector is a drawer in front and below the lead pot with a large cake pan setting in it. There is a 2 burner propane stovetop to the right of my setup with one burner in the 1:00 position for preheating if needed or sometimes I will cast with a ladle at this station. The pure lead balls and Minnies seem to pefer the ladle method for me. I am using pillow cases in my bucket to catch bullets and it also is an effective ramp to slow bullets in their fall to the bottom.
I am very happy with this setup and gratefull to Bruce for sharing his method. I was ostracised at one email list for posting my setup. After all the thrashings I got for having water near the lead pot I tried to explain my testing of droplets onto the top of the pot doing nothing but dancing and steaming away. (I have never had an accidental water drop in the pot)I was trampled by many of the "good ole boys" on that list and finally resigned and left them to their Lyman manuals.
I even use the Bruce B for bullets that do not benefit from water dropping. I believe that getting them cooled fast and gentlyto be a benifit. Also I can cast quit a pile with no crowding and adjusting of my cooling area. This is how I do itand I am happy with it. Jay

[David R]

Proponent of BruceB method. I even said Here He is my "Cast Boolit Hero". I also ordered some of Bullshop's lube to see how it works and try his method. I will report on it once I use it.

My "mallet" or "Club" is about 14" of a hardwood sledge hammer handle. Its almost worn through from use. Isn't that why they put that tab on the side of the plate? Ever use a Lyman 4 cavity? That one needs a good whack. Never warped, bent or broke a mold.

250 to 300 30 cal in 1/2 hour is normal for me. I usually do 4 1/2 hour sessions and have over 1,000 boolits. Then switch molds and do it again.

David

[Ken O]

I must be the only one that doesnt use a mallet, I just use my gloved hand to cut the sprue. When making the first few cast, or warming it up, the sprue cuts pretty hard, but after that its not that hard. I get a better feel on how much the sprue has froze, and can tell how hot the mold is getting by how hard the sprue plate cuts. I use welding gloves, the sprue plate fits in the palm of my hand.

[Urny]

Good thread, Bruce. I use a gloved hand for all single cavity molds, and a two pound bar of tin for two, three, and four cavity molds. Six cavity come with their own method of cutting the sprue. Bought my first mold, a Lee, in 1976 or 77, and still use it, after many thousands of casts. Since learning of BruceB's casting technique, I use no other, with a few modifications to suit my situation and peculiarities.

[Goatlips]

I am a Blackpowder Cowboy Action Shooter almost exclusively at this point in my life and our targets are big and close. In our game quantity overrides quality for most shooters.

A few Blackpowder Cowboys designed, out of necessity, what are now called "Big Lube"tm boolits that carry twice the normal lubrication or more, to use in our pistol caliber rifles. First came the Pigeonroost Slim .45, then the Snakebite .38 (for a .38 case, but the length of a .357), and the Mav Dutchman .44, all 6-cavity Lee molds. Long range designs have also appeared. Some of us had never had any interest in casting until these specialized molds came out, and we were forced to learn in a hurry, as no one sold the boolits commercially (until recently).

Anyhow, I came up with an elementary tutorial for beginning Cowboy casters, to try to help them avoid some of the difficulties one runs into when starting out. Pictures are especially helpful when you've never seen it done, I figure. Here 'tis:

http://goatlipstips.cas-town.com/casting.html

Goatlips

[Springfield]

I also use the Bruce B method, and like Goatlips I mostly use the Lee 6 cavity moulds. But I also cast 44 and 45's so one little 10 lb pot would never keep up so I use 2 20 pounders. Using one mould I can consistently cast 900-1000 bullets an hour. I like to drop the sprues back into the pot though,saves time and is neater.
When I use a Lyman or Saeco 2 cavity mould I find that opening them with my finger works fine as long as they are up to temp. I have a small rawhide mallet that I used to use doing my leather work that was replaced with a better quality one. I have no problem with giving a sprue plate a little tap to open a stubborn mould when necesary.

[The Nyack Kid]

the way i cast is a lot like BSs method. i run the pot as cool as i can go before i get spout freeze(bout 675*) and pour as fast as i can useing a small rubber hammer to push the sprue plate over . the boolits (WW alloy) fall out shiny ,as they cool they frost over . this works really good with big boolit(45 cal 400 grs+) in iron molds . ive found that casting fast and hot with the big iron molds leads to , for lack of a better word , "burned" edges instead of nice sharp edges . some notes , care must be taken when casting fast because the boolits are very soft and deform easly , just having a boolit get caught between the blocks can ding them .long skinny boolits will bend very easly if dropped more than a few inches off of a folded towl .

[Bass Ackward]

I am amazed at how many people become satisfied with a casting approach and stick to it. And how varried they are. You would think that everyone would eventually gravitate towards your method as any rational person would to find success. I used to cast for speed. Soon the fruits of my work became .... less consistent. My equipment got neglected and my molds started to suffer. I was going so fast that I couldn't .... "hear" what the molds and the mix were telling me. Soon it became like work and my shooting of cast actually decreased. But my real problem was I had a problem with manual dexterity and organization where I felt my casting was becoming unsafe. I was sloppy and eventually I got burnt.

So now I cast for relaxation. This may be "fast....er" or it may be slow. We are coming into the time of the year where I lay in the bullet supply for a year minus unexpected experiments. I end up with long evenings where activity is subdued or I awake earlier than chosen. The fight for entertainment is easy skirted and thus the pot replaces the need to support Hollywood. I do listen to the radio and sing sometimes to help keep down the boredom these days. Sometimes I remember Huckleberry Finn and use the local casting machine which is the kid next door. If you can't win fair in life, .... CHEAT! It supports the sport.

And so I will get through yet another year of using the silver stream.

[Bret4207]

Now there's the ticket! Thanks Bass. Efficiency, organization and an approach to casting as an enjoyable endeavour in itself. If it's WORK it ain't fun. I also can appreciate the idea of "listening" to the mold. I can only add this- take notes and write down the individual mould prefrences. I've got some I can use a 1lb Rowell ladle with and just pile the boolits up. Others require the smaller Lyman ladle in contact with the sprue hole. A Lyman 358156 requires a "drop tube" approach or the mould dosen't fill out. Those notes help this miserable wretch avoid turning every casting session into another "learning what I already would have known if I'd written it down" session.

[BABore]

You guys need to relax a little. Pop a tab and sit back.

I'm ladel pouring single and double cavity moulds at 100 to 200 bullets an hour. Most are 458's and 475's which seem be be way more consitent by using a ladel. I also tend to put away a 12 ouncer about every 45 to 60 minute during casting. To speed production I set the cooler next to my casting chair. 8)

Do you guys all own belt fed weapons or what. I cast, reload, and shoot 200 to 300 rounds of various calibers every weekend. Haven't ran out of bullets so far. Being a greenhorn, I kind of enjoy my set back casting technique. Are you guys telling me that you cast faster so you can enjoy it more or that you look at it as another chore.

[9.3X62AL]

My casting mode varies somewhat with the mold I'm using--they do have "personalities", for lack of a better term. Like Bret, I leave notes in the mold box to remind me of a tool's quirks and eccentricities.

Overall, I've cooled my metal down for the past 6 months or so. Using WW or Taracorp, I can pick up from .0005" to .0015" of diameter running the alloy at 650*-675* instead of at 800*-825*. With a couple molds--45 rifle in particular--this is the difference between usable, accurate boolits and a pile of recyclable metal. The lower temps also seem to largely eliminate the "Shrunken Boolit Syndrome" that Dan talks about on his Mountain Molds website. These phenomena seem to carry through in aluminum, steel, and iron mold blocks.

The REAL fix is to quit being so farking cheep and get a purpose-built 45 rifle mold, but I digress. I've seen Bruce's speed casting in action, and the method produces a truckload of high quality boolits in very short order. I think my method would be described as a more deliberate and relaxed pace, with the tools and equipment placed in sensible array to minimize motion. Hell, I'm retired--I don't have to do anything fast except drive to trout spots or quail country. Still, I'm able to crank out 250-300 boolits per hour without much strain at all--400+ if I put my mind to it, and this involves two 2 cavity molds running at the same time.

I'm DONE hurrying ANYTHING, in other words.

[The Nyack Kid]

i do enjoy casting its not work to me (work is sizing trimming and priming 1000 cases )when you got the alloy cool you have to go fairly fast to keep the mold temp up . really in the end they all do the same thing.

[Bullshop]

I have to confess to an attack on a different thread on a proven and well accepted system, the BruceB system , that attack leading to this thread.
I appologise for any and all feathers I may have ruffled.
Earlier this week somone said I should advertise more on this board, and thats kind of what I was up to.
The small ripple aproach I have been using to advertising didnt work well so I thought I neaded to make a wave, which it seems I have.
My appologies to all!
The byproduct of my advertising effort has though lead to this very informitive thread we can all learn from.
It wasnt realy the system I was trying to sell but the lube. I am shure the casting world can get buy just fine without it as it has for several centuries.
It is however a good product for the job and having another choice is not a bad thing.
BIC/BS

[BruceB]

I'm sorta late in this reply, due to being up to my ..."nether regions"....in assorted alligators here at work.

Please, BS, ol' man, do NOT think I took offence at your post, or construed it as an attack! It was extremely interesting, in fact, and I'll confess to always being intrigued by the 'hows' and 'whys' of other folks' routines and experiments. One of the valuable things I've learned from about six years on this Board and its predecessors is to NEVER say "never", and NEVER say "always", and to keep an open mind. The approach has served me well, as I've learned an awful lot of good stuff here.

The only reason I moved the discussion from Swapping and Selling was to get into a more-populated area of our site, where more people might find it worthwhile to post on the subject, and thus expand the discussion.

Looking over the replies, I seem to detect a perception among some of us, especially those with perhaps a kinda 'relaxed' approach to the hobby, that high-production casting is WORK, without any fun at all. Nothing could be further from the truth! I greatly enjoy my casting, and I do NOT push the process in any way. Whatever production rate I obtain is gained only by smooth and focussed application of a technique that works for me, and it isn't hurried at all, even though the mould gets filled four or five times per minute. The process IS the result of some careful study, but there's nothing fanatical or gritted-teeth-sweaty-LABOR about it. It's also highly entertaining to watch all those beautiful new boolits piling up as the time passes. (Much less entertaining when lube-sizing time comes, though....bleeeaagghh!)

One phenomenon I've never had trouble with is the "Shrunken Bullet Syndrome", and I don't really know why. I do suspect that, even though my furnace temperature is set at maximum, my actual MOULD temp may be well below what one would get without using wet-pad cooling. I find that I'm often resting the mould bottom on the pad for a second or two before cooling the sprue so maybe I'm knocking-off enough heat to keep the mould below a temperature where SBS might occur. This is a "feel" technique, the mould-bottom-cooling, so it's hard to describe just when or why I do it, but the end products are very nice and don't shrink, either.

Very interesting replies...keep 'em coming!

[BruceB]

On re-reading my last post, please note that I meant NO DISRESPECT by referring to folks with a 'relaxed' approach to casting!

I am surely one of the most 'relaxed' casters I know, but in the case of the post above, I was thinking of those who perhaps cast for BPCR or other games and/or pursuits which don't require large numbers of boolits. For such casters,there is no need for high production and hence they may not be aware of how easy it is to turn out a lot of boolits in rather short time frames.

Thousands of bullets on hand give me a warm fuzzy. For example,I probably have about 5000 .45 ACP bullets on the shelf, not counting over 3000 loaded rounds. That's a good feeling! Conversely, I have a bullet-casting friend who's happy to have just a couple hundred bullets on hand for his .45-110 Sharps'.

Different strokes, that's all. Hope I didn't offend anyone with that 'relaxed' remark.

[grumble]

"...Thousands of bullets on hand give me a warm fuzzy. For example,I probably have about 5000 .45 ACP bullets on the shelf, not counting over 3000 loaded rounds..."

Hope I don't hijack the thread with this, it isn't my intention:

I'd guess that most of us have thousands of rounds loaded and in components in our reloading areas. Many of us also have more than an "average" number of firearms. We don't think anything about it for the most part.

Do any of you remember the huge fuss made about Randy Weaver's 10 or 15 firearms? Or the "fifty-some" firearms in the home of the kid who recently shot his girlfriend's parents and ran off with her? I bring this up because I wonder about the liability of having "too many" (as if there were such a thing) firearms or ammo when the media gets ahold of the fact, or it comes out in court for some reason.

Anybody else ponder this?