Curious here

[country gent]

Im considering having C Sharps build me a rifle in 38-55 ( either a Hepburn or a high wall havent decided yet). I want to shoot bullets around 300-350 grns for shillouettes ( swingers) we normally shoot out to 500 yds. Id like to know what twist barrel you guys are using? C Sharps is now offering Mc Gowen barrels also. I also thought about 38-56 but dont want to get into the case forming. Im planning on a 30" barrel and finished rifle wieght of 9 1/2-10 1/2 lbs. upgraded walunt stock and forearm. Ladder rear mount and front spirit globe, set trigger and steel butt plate. But Im not sure on twist rate for these bullets or thier length. Thanks for the information and help.

[M-Tecs]

One more thing to consider is the land/groove width. For lead only the 50/50 is recommend over the normal 30/70.

[Hiwall55]

I've got CPA's in 38-55(13.25 twist) 38-50(12 twist)and 38-56((12twist) and all of them shoot really well for what you would do . I shoot BPCR with the 38-50and 38-56. The 38-56 is not hard to form, just run 40-65 Starline thru your die and trim. Just tell C Sharps to use a Green Mountain 12 twist barrel and shoot 360 grain money bullets.

[Toymaker]

I'm just getting started with 38-55 (high wall) and have been reading, reading and reading some more. I intend on using it for 200 yard ram silhouettes and, like you, want to use heavier bullets. Everything I've read so far indicates that 1:12 is the twist rate for bullets in the weight range we are considering. There's some really great information on the BPCR and ASSRA web sites. Hope this helps.

[Chill Wills]

I've got CPA's in 38-55(13.25 twist) 38-50(12 twist)and 38-56((12twist) and all of them shoot really well for what you would do . I shoot BPCR with the 38-50and 38-56. The 38-56 is not hard to form, just run 40-65 Starline thru your die and trim. Just tell C Sharps to use a Green Mountain 12 twist barrel and shoot 360 grain money bullets.

Highwall - the barrel CPA used on your rifle, 13.25 twist. Do you know who made it or where it came from? That sounds like a good twist rate and would work well for the 1.375" long 350-360 grain bullets I like in 38 cal.

Also, I have not even considered the 38-56 due to the history of reports from shooting friends that went that route 20+years ago - BUT - if you are having exceptional accuracy with one I would like to hear about the chamber, barrel and twist. FWIW - I just got the 38-56W reamer that S. Garbe used years ago. Its in my shop to do a barrel re-line on a tired 1886.

My next 38 is a 12 twist 38-55 but I would consider the 38-56 as an option. I doubt the last chapter has been written on that round.

[Hiwall55]

My 38-55 has a badger barrel on it. They made 15 and 13.25 twist and a CPA chamber made for breach seating . I shoot a Lyman postel at 200 and 300 and a BACO money with the first 2 bands reduced at longer range. It shoots real well . My next CPA I put a 12 twist on it and Chambered it for 38-56 and put a long leade on it to handle an elliptical bullet at 365 grain. I reformed Starline brass to 38-56 and put 57 grains of Swiss with no compression and it shoots fine to the Ram line. I also shoot a 380 grain NASA bullet in a 10 twist 38-50 Browning BPCR and am going to try that bullet in my 38-56 when the weather cooperates.

[country gent]

I am interested in the 38-56 round as an option also. I wouldnt be above buying a reamer for it if it was neccesary. I havent found and truely detailed drawings or prints of it. I would really like to see a case. If I could purchase one ( even a worn out one) to see what it looks like let me know.

[Chill Wills]

I am interested in the 38-56 round as an option also. I wouldnt be above buying a reamer for it if it was neccesary. I havent found and truely detailed drawings or prints of it. I would really like to see a case. If I could purchase one ( even a worn out one) to see what it looks like let me know.

I don't see why a correctly set up 38-56 should not work. I also said this about the 40-70 Sharps Straight too. My two 40-70 SS rifles are the toughest rifles to keep accurately putting bullets on targets I have ever owned!
That said, I would not use the 38-56 reamer I have for a new Singleshot rifle because, if the two previous riflemen that used it were not happy, why should my experience be different?
I bought the 38-56 chamber reamer cheap to chamber a lever rifle and I have a 38 throating reamer to maybe help with that too. But, that is a different subject.

Country gent, if you want I can post a picture of the 38-56 case in a future post today. Just need to get to a few other things in the shop and then take a picture of one.

Unless you are truly interested in messing around with an unusual SS round, the 38-55 ( not the 38-56) is hands down the surest way to own an accurate rifle. BTW-Pedersoli made a short run of fast twist 38-55's Highwalls that are very accurate if anyone can find one.
The short history of the target 38-56 was one of try and abandonment. Early on it was thought to be a high case capacity case to propel 38cal bullets to 500 meters and still take down rams. It never really caught on in its day (1990's) and was dismissed as an inaccurate silhouette and mid-range round. Powder, twist and chamber geometry could change all that. Tho I am not sure I am the one to do it just now. With the backlog of fun projects I have going I am looking for proven combos. I think another 38-55 may fill that need.

[Lead pot]

I had the .38-56 in a 86 Winchester that shot OK but I don't think I would have used for shooting a match, but it was a lever rifle. There is one .38-56 shooter that I see occasionally at our range that shoots a original 85 and it does a descent job despite a few pits in the bore from the old primers. You might pay attention to Chill because I think he put some time in with his.

Don't over look a .44-70 Maynard chambered in a high wall for Silhouettes with a 1/16 or 1/17 ROT. There are some floating around and every one that has one that I had conversations with done well with the .44. It's easy to make cases for with just a push through the sizing die and a .45-70 case.
I opted to go with the .44-75 Ballard chambered in a 44-1/2 Stevens CPA rifle and it is a fine shooter and mild recoil with a 485 gr or 500 gr bullet. I went with the 2.5" case instead of the 2.21" for a little heavier load for the long range matches. Old Kelly O-Roos shoots that caliber extremely well. Or shot it well. I haven't heard from him in some time.
I also shoot two .44-100 Rem St on the necked down .45-2.6 case both of those shoot good. one has a 1/17 ROT and the other has a 1/16 ROT.

Kurt

[country gent]

Kurt, I shoot a C Sharps in 45-90, a pedersoli sharps in 45-70 and a CPA shillouette model in 40-65 I have looked at the 44s and they are impressive to say the least. One of the reasons for this project is Dad drives me to the one match every month, Both of us were tool and die makers for our careers. ( also farmed) Dad is 78 and has some shoulder problems from all the hand fitting and some reservations about recoil. Part of the reason behind this project is a rifle with lighter recoil he might give a try. Also its fun to work witth a new rifle / caliber combination. I just want to get it right when I do it. The C Sharps Hepburn in 45-90 is a long day on the shillouette line over the day. Dropping roughly 200 grns of bullet wieght and 35 grns of powder charge should help that alot. Chill Willis, I will really appreciate the picture of the 38-56 case. I am leaning towards the 38-55 1-12 twist currently I do have the lymann 335 grn snover mould right now and a couple hundred 38-55 cases. I have considered having a second barrel fit to the CPA in 38-56 ( I wouldnt have to change extractors that way) but Ive never been a big fan of swap barrel rifles. I do appreciate the offer of the pics Thank-you

[Gunlaker]

Country Gent have you given much thought to a .38-50 Remington Hepburn? I only use my .38-55's for 200m paper targets so can't offer much advice on rams at 500, but the few people I've met who tried to use a .38-55 on silhouettes switched to either a .38-50 RH, or .40-65.

The advantage of the Remington Hepburn is that you can find a good match grade chamber design that you know is going to work. The downside is finding .30-40 Krag brass to form from. It will hold a fair bit more powder than a .38-55. I have one in a 12 lb highwall and it's nice to shoot.

I have a .38-56 in an 1886 and it holds a little more powder than the .38-55. The problem I find with it is that my RCBS dies for that cartridge really overwork the brass. If I was going with a single shot for competition in that cartridge and wanted to use neck tension I'm not sure that my off the shelf dies would make me a happy camper. For the few shots I put through that 1886 I don't care much. It's not a precision rifle.

Chris.

[country gent]

Gun Laker, Ill have to research the 38-50 RH now. Here in Northwet Ohio our matches are on swinging targets so a wiggle and or tink / ding score a hit. On the falling targets I can see the disadvantage. My shooting partner has a 38-55 high wall and shoots the 312 rcbs bullet over smokless duplication loads, on edge hits Its hard to see movement or hear the hit at times, On Rams at 500 yds its a little wiggle and tink. My 45-90 with the 547 grn bullets theres little doubt when any hit is made. As to dies I will probably go with a meacham bushing sizing die, I have one Im using for 40-65,45-70 and 45-90 I really like. And the nice thing is with bushings I can adjust neck tension and or up or down for Paper Patched or grease grooved bullets.

[Chill Wills]

Chris, As you know, Rick Moritz has been giving all of us a working over with his 38-50 Rem-Hepburn - DanT chamber I think.
Many more good riflemen have given the chambering a try and after a year or two of fighting accuracy issues the rifles get rebarreled because accuracy is good one day and they can't hit the barn the next time out.

I have had Michael Jackson's 38-50 here in my shop about a year to see if I can get it going for him. he has had it with the rifle. Nice rifle too - a Hepburn. It is a head scratcher! Mike Lewis even set the barrel back and re-cut the chamber with the same reamer Mr. Moritz's rifle was chambered with I think. Rechambered anyway. The same accuracy issues remain.

I can name a dozen rifles and riflemen that have gone that way trying the 38-50. Clearly they will shoot well and you must be happy with yours if you are suggesting it.

In contrast, that little 38-55 Ballard with the barrel and chamber all correct is all but an automatic accurate rifle. I have found with my own 38-55 rifle shooting silhouette that a 15 twist shoots great but will only support a bullet 1.25" long (about 330 grs.), with stable-rounds holes to the rams. If a longer bullet is desired, a 14 or 12 twist is needed. A 14 twist is a good compromise as it will get you a 350 gr bullet to the rams with stability and a 350gr tapered bullet seated out of the case - even in a no throat/short throat barrel can hold 50 - 53 grains of Swiss 2F and scoot out there.

Based on what I think I know, I would rather have a slower twist rifle that gets the job done - just fast enough to work. This avoids some of the problems I have had with really fast twists. Maybe this is all in my mind as it is anecdotal and I can't prove a lick of it.

Chris - maybe you can coach me through the finer points of 38-50 accuracy. It would be good to get Jackson's rifle going for him.

[John Boy]

Have two 38-55 single shots with 1:18 bores. The old Ideal 375166 (Accurate has a clone of the bullet mold), the bullet in a 1:18 twist has a ratio of 17.65 with black powder. 42 - 46gr of FFg will knock down Rams at 500m with consistent accuracy

[Gunlaker]

Well Michael, my .38-50 is actually a schuetzen benchrest rifle. I should have clarified that by nice to shoot I meant low recoil. Mine is a highwall with an RKS gain twist barrel that ends in 1:14. It probably sounds goofy to most, but I shoot breech seated paper patched bullets in it. I think it's a lot easier to get a rifle to shoot well when breech seated than with fixed ammunition so perhaps this is why mine shoots nicely.

I've always wondered why some cartridges are supposed to be more finicky than others. I've heard the same said for the .40-70 SS. I used to think that the problem with smaller bores was maybe caused by the fact that the groove depth is a greater percentage of bullet diameter, so more potential chance for imbalance. But I'm not sure.

The one thing I've noticed is that the smaller the bore, the more accuracy is affected by fouling, or even a little strand of lead that wouldn't bother a larger bore. For my schuetzen rifles I usually run 3 and sometimes 4 damp patches and leave the bore lightly oiled or I get a little sliver of lead that causes a flyer.

I doubt that I could provide any useful advice getting that .38-50 to work though. You have far more experience than I do. I can't imagine that I'd have any useful insights that you have not had long ago

Chris.

[Lead pot]

CG.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...AA&FORM=IQFRBA
Check out this link you will see photo's of the .38-56 and a schematic for a chamber drawing. I have a original shell in my box of odd and ends but it's not a good idea to send it to you.
I don't think the .38-56 is a soft enough recoiling shell if one is recoil sensitive. It gives a good sharp push when you set it off. You will find that a bottlenecked shell will push harder then a straight walled shell. I shoot a couple bottle necked .44's, two .44-90 sharps bn and the .44-77. The .44-90bn loaded with a 95 gr load belts me harder then the same load in the .44-100 Rem straight with the same weight Sharps, bullet and powder.

[Chill Wills]

[QUOTE=country gent;3509499 Chill Willis, I will really appreciate the picture of the 38-56 case. I do appreciate the offer of the pics Thank-you[/QUOTE]
Hopefully this will work.... I hope you can see what you need from these pictures. One flash and one not.

[country gent]

Thank you Chill Willis I have cartridges of the world here and some otheres than name it but have charts giving dimensions no pics. Again thank-you

[Chill Wills]

Well Michael, my .38-50 is actually a schuetzen benchrest rifle.
I doubt that I could provide any useful advice getting that .38-50 to work though. You have far more experience than I do. I can't imagine that I'd have any useful insights that you have not had long ago Chris.

Chris, I know that is not true. You are humble. Clearly you have as much to offer as anyone.
Hmmm - or maybe your just fattening the hog for the next match when you run the score up and slaughter everyone!

On that line of thought, I am sure what I am about to write is true for all of us - have you ever worked and worked trying to solve a problem or fix something and you are just not getting anywhere with it? ....and then someone comes along and out of the blue (with fresh eyes) says "well, I just do this" or "have you checked that?" and wow! Problem solved!

[Old-Win]

Michael, I'm curious what you think may be going on with the inconsistencies of your 38-50 RH? I've got one barreled up by John King with a 14" twist GM barrel. I don't shoot it that much because I just rely on my 45-70 and 45-90's all the time. Mine shot best, believe it or not with some old Elephant which is now gone. When you say good accuracy one day but not the next, what kind of accuracy are you talking about? Bob