A puzzle of sorts

[Digital Dan]

I present some data and what I take as a few more conundrums. Thoughts appreciated as they occur regarding the loading of a .40-.38-55 ML cartridge rifle.



Without the 1.5" 12X Unertl scope the gun weighs ~19#. Obviously a Highwall action, the barrel is 28-5/8" long, 1.21" flat to flat, 9 grooves and 18" twist and made with leaded steel, either 12L14 or 40L41. Bore and Groove are approximately .397" and .404" respectively. The groove width is ~.10" and the lands are ~.030" wide. The chamber is cut for the Winchester .38-55 case, though it is not wholly clear which style at this point. The barrel is choked and while slugging there was no evidence of variations in diameter other than the choke.

Without a bore scope to verify this, it appears there is a possibility the chamber is actually an insert. There is no extractor for the case, but a small cut out on the radius of the breech end of the barrel to allow one to hook the case with a fingernail or Bowie knife, whichever is available I suppose.

The Mos mould is a form somewhat typical of his style with 5 small grooves in the range of .010" depth, a short radius nose form with large meplate. They cast in the range of 341-344 grains depending on alloy and mic .403 diameter x 1.097" long.

A chamber cast suggests the dimension from breech face to leade is 2.21". Approximately 1/4" from the breech face the O.D. is .423". At what would ostensibly be the case neck the diameter is .4115".

Where I stop to ponder goes to the simple point of available brass and length.

Production from W-W for standard .38-55 has a nominal OAL of 2.080" for the lot on hand.
W-W .38-55 basic is 2.241". The basic case holds 57.9 gr.of Swiss 1.5 fg by weight, or 55 gr. by volume without use of a drop tube.

As you might imagine the bullets will not fit in the brass, but will seat easily against the respective case mouth of each type of brass. A conversation with Mr. Darr several years ago provided me with several useful pieces of information.

1. "The gun will shoot better than you can."
2. "You need to replace the missing range rod."
3. "Seat the bullet .075" off the case mouth/chamber leade."
4. "Don't use smokeless powder."

I don't know if I'm worthy, but I'm going to give it the old college try. See the above for insight about how I purchased this gun for a song.

On topic of case length, where would you start with this?

[Sharpsman]

Go over to Shiloh Rifle Forums....and ask the same questions!

[Omnivore]

I see only one question, and you appear to have answered it yourself;
"A chamber cast suggests the dimension from breech face to leade is 2.21"."
Although that word "suggests" is a potential problem. A good chamber cast shouldn't suggest such a thing. It should tell.

I fail to see what most of that other information has to do with the question, although the bullet diameter being under groove diameter would "suggest" that the bullet is undersized. This may not matter, though the BPCR competition shooters I know tend to go for "big, soft bullets", meaning over groove diameter and no antimony. They take bullet fit and alloy pretty seriously.

Also;
3. "Seat the bullet .075" off the case mouth/chamber leade."
I have no idea what that could mean. Without a detailed explanation, possibly with diagrams, it looks like gibberish to me. Does he mean 75 thousandths back from the start of engagement with the rifling? That could make sense, but .075 off the case mouth would be ridiculous. In all my years of reloading and reading loading manuals I've never heard of a "case mouth/chamber leade". Maybe your rifle has one and none of mine do.

And why is this posted under muzzleloading?

[Plastikosmd]

Maybe I'm wrong omivore but this is a muzzle loaded cartridge rifle.

I can't remember my seat depth dan, mine came with a breech seater that I seat though the false muzzle down onto as a positive stop. A chambered dud with appropriate blocker should also work just as well


Mine, as it was, beautiful cast plum reciever, Ballard with breisen barrel. Heavy bugger. Reciever had to go as a cast reciever is not built for 32-40. It already had a faint crack. Who knows how long it was shot like that?


It is now in the white and done. Time to start working up a load. It is not pretty anymore but safer. We will enjoy this journey together

[Digital Dan]

Doc, best of luck with that sweetheart, film at 11 from my end when it happens.

Omnivore........

-Use of the term 'suggests' goes to the thought that 2.21" is a very close approximation though not carried out to 12 decimal places.
-It is in the Muzzleloading forum because it is a muzzleloader. I assumed that a .40 caliber using a .38-55 cartridge would have made that obvious. If not that perhaps the "ML cartridge rifle" reference right after that. Will try to be more explicit next time around.
-It isn't the least uncommon for BP guns to use very slightly undersized bullets in relationship to groove diameter.
-"case mouth/chamber leade" is a reference to where the bullet would be seated in the bore and reflects my conundrum regarding case length. If perchance I use a case that reaches the leade the dimension is one and the same. If more experienced minds than mine suggest with good basis, that the case needs to be trimmed somewhat shorter, cool beans. I don't know the answer to that....and am asking herein.

In this particular gun the distinction between leade/chamber/bore is a very fine line that is subtle though abrupt. I can fully chamber the basic brass (unfired) and lock the action closed w/o interference. I can also seat a bullet on the case mouth. Too many options for a mind prone to overthinking things? Probably.

Hope that clears things up for you.

[Digital Dan]

After a small bit of reflection, it is possible that the concept represented by the rifles pictured above is an unknown to many if not most shooters. It is largely a development of Harry Pope many years ago, geared specifically to the target shooting sports. Ol' Harry was strongly of the opinion that a bullet could be better seated from the muzzle than the breech in context of ultimate precision. Breech seating has largely displaced the practice and I don't argue pro or con on either side, much as I don't argue whether BP or smokeless (passing fad) are superior, or that GG bullets are as accurate as paper patched, or that jacketed bullets are superior to cast, all of which are inferior to swagged bullets, particularly if they are 2 piece hammer die swagged.. The concepts are what they are, use them or don't as suits your whim.

The essence of the ML cartridge gun theory is that a cartridge is loaded with a card wad to hold the charge in place, a bullet seated via the muzzle to a predetermined position with a range rod specific to that gun and bullet via a false muzzle and bullet starter. After seating the cartridge is loaded and the X-ring poked in the nose. More often than you might think.

I note that sometime around 1903 +/- one of Mr. Pope's rifles set a bench rest record that stood unchallenged for something around 50 years. Take if for what it's worth.

Harry Pope
http://www.oldbike.eu/centurycolumbia/?page_id=431

[Plastikosmd]

^ love the history Dan

Do u plan on using a card or wad? BP only for me with this action too

I'm not sure if mine was set with a range rod to final depth, set and corrected with breech seater or this is an hybrid allowing for breech or muzzle seating. I plan to do option #2, set and correct

[Digital Dan]

Yes sir, a card wad in the scheme. Think what I'm going to try on the front end is to trim the basic brass to leade - .005, seat a bullet on the case mouth and see what happens. I can move the bullet out in increments with successive rounds by use of a dummy cartridge and wads. Have those in .030" and .060" measure from Mr. Walters and some thinner versions available as well. With any luck I'll find the sweet spot and craft a range rod to that measure. I don't understand Mr. Darr's suggestion to seat the bullet base to .075 off the leade. Sure he had a reason, but I can't figure it.

[M-Tecs]

Those are a couple of very interesting rifles.

[Plastikosmd]

thx mtech
I gravitate to the unusual (and often quite heavy)

also

1) beautiful bench and background, dan=wow

2) I have never shot with a card, do you keep it flush with case mouth (I would imagine this is best for tapered 32-40) or down on charge

gracias

[Digital Dan]

Yes indeed, card flush with the case mouth is normal and what I had in mind, but... Interesting thought comes from that however...juggling depth of the wad with a compression die and simply soft seating the bullet on the case mouth. Hmmmmmmm Mentioned above the bore was choked if you recall? Once past the first 6" or so it is an easy seat for the rest of the barrel. I'm guessing there are perhaps a couple or three thou constriction in the muzzle. Will have to investigate that.

Thanks for the complements. We're about 3 miles from the Gulf on the Withlacoochee River. Deep black water river it is. The wood for the bench came from the loss of several cedar trees from a tropical storm in '04, some of which is stacked to the side in the pic. I have "pet" lizards, some as much as 10' long. Jolly bunch of grumps they are.

[Plastikosmd]

U keep your lizards, I will keep my 2 cats. They may not be bright but a whole lot more cuddly than your 'pets!'

[Digital Dan]

True. Had two cats for a long while, they weren't the outdoor variety. OTOH, I didn't need a security fence and they keep the slipper dogs thinned out.

[Plastikosmd]

Took some pics of how it looks now. Sun was bright, barrel is blue, looks white near the white action


32 bore and 2" across the flats makes for a heavy piece!

[Digital Dan]

.32 hey? Nice squirrel rifle you have there!

[Nobade]

Plastikosmd, would you mind telling me about your scope mounts? I have that same scope, with the ring mounts. As you probably know, those don't work all that well. I would love to find a normal mount like you have with a decent amount of travel but haven't ever seen one large enough.

-Nobade

[Plastikosmd]

I would guess they are made by Kuharsky. I have a similar setup on another rifle that also uses a custom front too


The 32-40 will recoil, the Shultz is a semi-solid mount setup

[Nobade]

Thanks, and for sharing pics! I suppose I'll have to get busy and make one myself, I bet they're not too common. How does that solid front hold up? I wouldn't think you'd want that on anything more than a 22 rimfire.

-Nobade

[Plastikosmd]

Semi solid really, it has a large thick rubber o-ring. Seems to be ok. 30 lb rifle doesn't move much.

Another pic I had

[Nobade]

Hmmm, interesting way to do that...

Always good to see how others have gone about solving puzzles.

-Nobade