Stendebach "Ideal" wannabe slugs

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Probably in 1898 Mr. Brenneke thought the fins would make them slugs spin then kept them as his "trademark"?

Or expected people to think so. They do have a useful role, in keeping slugs straight in the bore, and yet passing safely through the choke. But I am convinced straight ones would be just as good.

Shotgun barrels could be much thinner in their forward area than they are, if only internal pressure were involved. The reason for more metal is to prevent dents from the outside, and prevent deep pitting becoming a danger. The way shotgun barrels burst, other than at the front of the chamber, is due to the gas pressure wave-front set up by an obstruction. If the missile decelerates, the gases catch up, and pressure rises to a very high level immediately behind it. It can even bounce off the projectile, bounce back off the breech face, and produce a double ring bulge, separated by the inch or two the projectile moves while the gases are doing all this. They are fast. Here is a double ring bulge I produced experimentally in a condemned barrel.

The projectile moves even while the pressure is catching up to produce a single ring bulge. That is why it doesn't happen in the choke, where an inch of projectile movement opens a path to the fresh air. But steel shot can expand a choke, purely by the pressure of metal on metal. It exerts no force once it is expanded, so it can't burst anything. But you lose your choke, which is why something like those ribs is essential.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I too doubt internal ribs will do any good - still not sure about external though. My "propeller head" slug was a spectacular failure, but it sort of illustrated the force imparted on the slug by air resistance; the front must be as symmetric as possible.

My best results has been with helical ribs, but since I've been modifying the wads along the way, it's difficult to make a direct comparison between straight and helical designs. Still, why would Brenneke go through the trouble of of using helical ribs instead of straight if they add nothing to the performance? A helical swaging die is much more complicated to make than a straight ribbed, even more so back in 1897.

BIS: Round ball sabot slug.

Perhaps this design would work. It's a couple of years old, but still a model only:


The idea was to have two different heights of wads; one, like the picture, where the "fingers" are long enough to make the wad permanent attached to the ball (0.6456 diameter) and a shorter design where the wad only act as a cushion and guide down the barrel. The "fingers" are thick enough to allow the slug to pass through a full choke (but this would probably stretch the material to a point where ball and wad would separate)

Ahhhhh.... I wouldn't be surprised if that device, with a well made ball, could give the best 100 yard accuracy anyone could obtain with a smoothbore gun.

The sabot would have to always stay on, or always detach immediately. I am not sure which would be better, for detachment would prevent rolling in the bore, while staying on might have the right distribution of weight and drag to prevent a roll from beginning in the air, but might be a tail-wager, while detaching.

But I think the slight constriction about the equator shown in that drawing might produce inconsistency. It should either be greater, or virtually eliminated. In the latter case it would simply be a cushion and centring device. But if it is to stay on, is there any reason why the top rim should be divided into six fingers with six slots at all? Maybe difficulty in detachment of the sabots from the ball-shaped part of the mould would be the decisive factor. But if not, springing your lead ball (or zinc ball, or 11/16in. or 18mm ball bearing) would surely hold the sabot all the way to the target.

[victorfox]

Look the mold and hollow slug I told you (go for the pics the talk is in PT-BR).
http://codinamakerbullets.blogspot.i...as-185-mm.html
this guy is one of the few independent makers of gear here. Too bad is almost always busy and his things are quite expensive for our standards.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Bis:

You're right about the constriction being insufficient with the "finger" design. The original design had the fingers end below equator for a cushion-only wad, but the way the design program (SolidWorks) works, longer "fingers" are just a matter of changing a number, so there...

The simple way of ejecting a part with "negative taper" from an ejection mold is to have a movable core: The part stays on the core till it's clear of both mold halves and is then ejected. Of course, the part must be flexible enough to slip over the core without taking any permanent damage from stretching.

[victorfox]

Today I set time to mess with these slugs and load them in the 12ga. I loaded some "as is" with some paper wrapped around as a patch, made some "paper brennekish" with the slug encased in a paper patch and a wad of EVA glued to the slug and the patch, and made, just for kicks and to see if this has some effect on the slug, a gamo rocket like thing: I glued a .40" lead ball to the slug front cavity hopefully giving more weight forward balance... It may be futile but didn't shoot any yet to find...
I'm waiting the brennekishs to dry before I load. I'll use a gas seal cut from a regular wad and a card disk under the slug. All crimps are 6-folders.
Found at the range sometime ago a monstrosity CBC sold as the Home Defense load. A 2" shell with 7/8 I think of copper plated #9. 9!!! I can only think it's a good load if you're attacked by Hitchcock's birds, or have a rat/snake attack... While I don't want to get shot even with a BB that would not have the power to realistically defend against an intruder. Thankfully that load was discontinued some time ago.
Being the cheapskate I'm and having little access to components, I decided to give a go on those hulls using 280gr of shot and 10gr of powder ( got this recipe somewhere). Shotsize is #F and I want to see if it's a reasonable load. My wife is scared of the 12 and it would be hard enough to get another smaller gauge for her. If it has some power I can switch to 00 or 000 buck, don't know. Another advantage touted by CBC and made clear by Aguillas minishells is the augmented capacity of the 12 pump. Mine holds 7 in the tube it should go to 9.
Crimping is tricky since my press has full closing die set for 2 3/4" and has no way to change it. I realized if I put a .690" round ball (fishing sinker) it would make for the differenfe. Bingo! First shells were wrinkled but I got a little better and was able to make my own shorter shells cutting some worn hulls I had. All crimped fine. Used a regulqr wad with shortened petals and some folded paper in the bottom.

[victorfox]

Little joke... Let's see how they shoot... Hopefully tomorrow. Loaded them paper wrapped in brass cases. Having trouble to upload other pics. Will try again later.

[TonyfromItaly]

Hello fellows, stendebachs have been used here in italy from the 60's to the 80s for hog hunting. they are very devastating, but past 40 meters.... not very accurate. However our average hog shot is 30 meters with out militia type hunting. so they were good enoght! if you have italian powders, i cas pass along load data.

[victorfox]

Ciao Tony! Good to know this... some old timers here tell the same, up the 60s/70s hunting was allowed freely, so I got some stories of hunters taking deer (about the size of a whitetail), javelina, peccari, jaguar, capybaras and tapir with these slugs, from 32 to 12 gauge. I don't know how they were made back then, but todays slugs are like these I got, some worse, with a lot of sprue material to be cut.

Unfortunatedly, I have only access to black powder and CBC made smokeless, but I'd like to have your load data anyway. You just never know... Thanks.

Still didn't have the time to range test them, I'm with bunch of ammo and targets ready for that, but working in weekends too.

[TonyfromItaly]

Ciao Victor. Original stendebachs used to be 32 grams. To load them in any ga, put a gas seal over the powder, then a good felt wad, then the stendebach and roll crimp. A rule of thumb to get load data is this. For a 32 grams slug, find a load data for a specific powder for 36 grams lead pellet shot, increase the powder amount by 15% and you have got it. For a 28 gram slug, find load data for 32 gram lead shot and increase it 15%.

[victorfox]

Ciao Tony, thanks.

Hello all.

Today I went to the range and tested some loads... The ones in plastic hulls probably were a bit too hot, while those loaded in brass cases were milder. (probable reason I used the same load in both hulls/cases)

Accuracy and stability-wise, they are no good... While I almost kept all the shots inside the target (A4 paper), some punched tru, others hit sideways, most of them tumbled... And this at 10 meters.

Tried some informal penetration tests in a stack of paper and both penetrated about 0.82 inches and deformed horribly, while retaining all the pieces together. The destruction was not impressive. All shots taken about 1yd. A standard factory 1/5 foster slug penetrated 1.22" in the same media, same as a single .440" ball I loaded in brass cases.

Took pics, will post later.

Still have some hundred slugs, will think what to do, if shoot them "as is" or improvise some tail, dunno yet...

[victorfox]

Got another phone and could retrieve some pics....


These are at 10m bare slugs loaded in brass and plastic hulls. No difference in stabilization and accuracy. All bad... whole pattern about 4x4. The paper is a common A4 size. At this defensive distance yeah it could have some usability...



This was at same 10m but using those with a spent 209 primer as a tip. As you can't see them, not all hit the target...

From all the shots at least 2 flew straight. I'm probably playing with some tail when I get the time.


Lastly the remains of two NOT IDEAL slugs with a .440~ round ball in the middle after impacting a bunch of printing paper. None shed weight but look at the mess. Had one pic of the foster slug but lost and also forgot to measure them but that flat 209 primer might give an idea.

Still have to fix the stability issue to try them in soft tissue... like some clay or soap bars (no ballistic gel here)

Didnt shoot any 12ga yet hope they do better... this is another joke with a 440 ball glued to cavity.


Will keep updating but don't put much faith anymore...

[victorfox]

Ok after the last failures (still couldn't bring the 12 outside the house...) I though about making some tails using the available wads.



I saw some Russian slugs using quite a similar tail/wad... Glued with contact cement which is not great and it will hopefully stand the firing (in brass cases). This glue holds very badly and the base of the wad twists a lot when shot reason I didn't glued them to the slug using instead the inverted shotcup as stabilizer... Have to test them now.

[longbow]

It's worth a try but I suspect the flimsy petals on the shotcup will "flap" in the turbulence resulting in erratic flight.

I haven't tried that but similar ideas and so far a good solid attached wad column has done best for me. Hot melt glue is pretty easy and cheap and works pretty well.

Nice to see some more experimentation going on. It has been too long since I have gotten time to go to the range! Too much to do and too little time.

I will look forward to your results.

Longbow

[victorfox]

Longbow I too believe they will not behave well... But I have a tomato sauce can full of them (about the size of pea can)...and not willing to melt them yet.

If they can make to the target tip forward i'm happy.

Me too having too littke time for range and to make things worse got a nasty cold this week fever and all (feeling like I took a beat from a truck...)

[victorfox]

Hi there. Finally got to the range.

Didn't try the last post idea, but tried other things.

I tried to fill the front of the slug with a #F pellet, shot 5 of these and they don't work at 33ft (10m), hitting sideways.

These are pretty much hopeless slugs.

But then I tried this, with the slug inverted and with a wad base inserted. IT FLEW STRAIGHT!!! And hit the target this way all the time I hit, because accuracy was not there... (same distance as above).




left is a 44-40 case loaded with birdshot, .410 case cut with "round ball" and 3 slugs loaded as above.

Didn't take pictures of the pattern, but they spread about 6" all over the paper. I shot 5 and hit 3 times. I suppose they are flying crazy, since I was hitting well at this short range.

Will try again with the inverted slugs till I finish them and won't buy anymore. The 12 gauge slugs, I didn't try yet (hard to take a long gun to range here...), but probably they will do better.