Developing a load for 1853 Slant Breech Sharps

[tmacmi]

Hello Folks,

I'm new here so please bear with me.

I own an 1853 Sharps Slant Breech Carbine in 60 bore (plus minus .44). About 10 years ago I had the gun fully restored by Markus Moll in Germany.

I shot it a bit back then, but then the kids got into sports and I had to put it aside for a while. I've decided to pick it back up again.

When I had the gun restored, I told Markus that I wanted to hunt deer with it. He being a German gunsmith was very adamant about developing a bullet/load that was sufficient for deer. So he made a custom mold for a 376 grain bullet. Its a four ring bullet that's about 1.11" in length. the first ring is approximately .42" in diameter the final ring is .44". (I'm led to believe that this bullet is heavier than the original bullet of the day)

I spent some time at the bench and developed a nitrated paper cartridge that used 67 grains of 1 1/2 fg swiss with a 1/4" cotton wad between the powder and bullet.

It posted 4" groups at 50 yards. I was able to kill a sizable boar at about 70 yard with it.

I just never felt like I got the accuracy out of the gun it was capable of. Now that the boys are almost out of the house I feel like I can now goof around with it.

FWIW, I spent some time time trying to gauge the twist rate and as best I can tell its 1:37.25 inches

So here are some thoughts/goals

1) continue to develop the load for the 376 grain bullet.

2) find out more about the original bullet and load and develop that.

Thank you,

Tmac

[Outpost75]

You don't say what case the rifle is chambered for or what alloy you are using.

Re-reading your post, I see it is not for a metallic cartridge. So stick with black, and soft alloy, no harder than 1:40 tin/lead.

[Nobade]

Most likely it is going to work best with a bullet close in design to the original. From your post I take it you are in Germany? I don't know if they can ship to you or not, but Moose Moulds make some very nice moulds for Sharps rifles. Since it was restored by a pro, I assume the nipple is in good shape and the gas seal is working properly? If the rifle is working well, there's not much load workup to do with one of those rifles. Charge is about 60 grains of FFg and a good hot cap. Bullets should be pretty soft, use good BP lube, and it should shoot well. Have you tried it with loose powder? You may find better accuracy that way compared to cartridges. Oh, hair curler paper makes wonderful cartridges and there's no need to nitrate it. Lots of fun playing with those rifles, it's neat you have an original one!

-Nobade

[Mk42gunner]

If your twist rate is in fact 1:37.25", your bullet is way to long to stabilize. Find a Greenhill formula online and check it out your self.

At a wild guess, I am going to say you need a bullet in the range of 200 to 250 grains with that twist for optimum accuracy.

Robert

[tmacmi]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not in Germany. It a long story, but I got hooked up with Markus through some of my English shotgun collecting buddies. He makes custom Sharps over there. He did a nice job on it. In the past I used plumbers lead for casting the bullets.

I've been using 1.5 Fg Swiss. I've been curious about using 2 Fg since the barrel is only 20 inches.

I'll look into the Greenhill formula. I think I may have to stalk Craigslist for a chrono, since I have no idea what muzzle velocity I'm throwing.

[Lead pot]

There is a guy that shoots a slant breach on our range now and then but he said his is a .52 caliber but measures more like .53. He uses what he calls a Christmas tree ring tailed bullet that is 3 groove 1-1/16" long in his.
He usually shoots his pushing the bullet in with a dowel till it's tight and fills the chamber with a loose load of powder and lets the block scrape off the excess. I had a 63 in a 50 caliber and I made the nitrated paper and tied it on the ring tail using silk thread and my bullet was 1-1/8" long. They shoot quite well but you need to blow down the breach between shots or use a flannel patch soaked in your mouth and wipe the chamber now and then with a short pistol cleaning rod.
I used a nasal spray bottle and kept the plate moving when making repeated shots.
You might want to do away with the cotton ball.

[tmacmi]

He usually shoots his pushing the bullet in with a dowel till it's tight and fills the chamber with a loose load of powder and lets the block scrape off the excess.

Its interesting, I've had that recommended a couple of times. The chamber has a lot more volume than the paper cartridge. I haven't measured it before, but I'd guess its capable of holding 90 grains or more of powder. As it stands the 68 grains of powder doesn't fill the paper cartridge fully. That's why I use the felt wad. I've also used baby food to fill the gap. There wasn't a lot of difference in performance between the two.

[Lead pot]

I might add to what I used to do.
I used to dip lube my ring tails in hot lube, the whole bullet and set it to cool point up. This would cover the whole bullet with lube and it let me shoot all I wanted. One might think with a coating of lube over the whole nose would be none productive for accuracy but I did not find this to be the case.
Or I would grip the bullet with a needle nosed plyers and just dip the base to fill the grooves like dip lubing a GG bullet but I don't remove the excess lube.
Preheating the bullets with a hot air gun before dipping the whole bullet reduces the amount of lube that sticks on the bullet when it cools.
Just a few things to try to see if you can tighten up your 4" groups at 50 or 100 yards. You should have no problem with getting a 2" at 100.

[tmacmi]

I am bumping this up. I'm finally getting back to this.

Earlier it was suggested that the bullet I am using is too long for the twist rate. I spoke with a gunsmith friend and he ended sending me a box of these bullets. https://www.buffaloarms.com/459-300-...x-of-50-459300 They are .459" in diameter.

Measuring the lands and groves of the rife is hard to accomplish because its a odd number of grooves.

I inserted a cylinder of wrapped paper into the muzzle and I came up with .43 between the lands.

I then tapped one of these bullets into the breech end with a brass cleaning rod. I couldn't get it all the way through to the muzzle, but I also didn't really pound on the end of the rod either.

When the round came out the lands had cut a healthy grove in the bullet, but even with examining it with a glass I didn't see evidence that the bullet hit the bottom of the grooves.

Do you think this bullet is too large in diameter to safely shoot?

[KCSO]

Last issue of Black Powder Cartridge News had a big write up on this with chrono and accuracy.

[MikeT]

tmacmi,

What alloy are the bullets that your friend sent to you?
If you are able to push that bullet part way into the barrel, then I am guessing that a
charge of BP will push it through the barrel ok.
I would cast very soft bullets to start with, then add tin gradually until the rifle seems to shoot best.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[tmacmi]

tmacmi,

I would cast very soft bullets to start with

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

Buffalo Arms just got back to me. They say its made with 20-1. (I'm not sure if that's a way of saying 5% tin or some formula)

Here's a photo of the bullet I pushed into the barrel. You can see that the bullet never ran fully into the grooves, though I'm sure they will with the force and heat of the powder.

[tmacmi]

Last issue of Black Powder Cartridge News had a big write up on this with chrono and accuracy.

Yes I just happed upon the current issue of Black Powder Cartridge. Unfortunately he was working with a .52 caliber, not a .44

[longrange2]

I Think a3/4" bullet would be the way to go. Vic

[tmacmi]

I spent yesterday working with various loads using the https://www.buffaloarms.com/459-300-...x-of-50-459300. I tried 72 grains of 1.5 fg swiss and I was very disappointed. I could not create a group. I was beginning to think it was me and my poor shooting.

I had also pulled together several loads with 70 grains of 4fa. All of the sudden the groups pulled together! See the attached; a 2 1/2" group at 50 yards. That is about as good of shooting as I am capable of.d

Don't worry about the windage. The foresight had fallen out and I'm reworking it back. (How do you keep it set? Loctite?)

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello tmacmi,

If it's a dovetail, try putting a little brass shim under it.

AntiqueSledMan.