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Thread: twist rate and .45-70

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    twist rate and .45-70

    I have a Navy Arms rolling block action.I am planning on putting a .45-70 barrel on
    it.I am planning on using the 300,the 400 and 500 grain bullets.I am also planning on this one strictly as a blackpowder rifle.Would a twist of 1 in 20 be good or not.Would like to get the most accurate twist as possible.Planning on at leasta 28 inch barrel,havent figured out if it should be octagon or round,and what was the carbine/cavalry load

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    For general-purpose twist, that's about right. If you decide to lean towards heavier boolits, you'll want a faster twist. The lighter ones should do better with a slower rate but it's not etched in stone.

  3. #3
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    twist

    I had a roller built for myself with a 28" bbl. From my readings, I asked for a 1 in 18 twist. I shoot bp and pyrodex select and I got the 1 in 18 to stabilize the 500 gr Lee 500 3r. At 300 yds, the bullet goes through the paper the way it should > no wobble.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    So a 1 in 22 twist would be slow in a 45-70?
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    No, not for 200 yard deer with a 500 or less grainer. 18 would be perfect for getting on out there, say 1000 shooting buffs in a gale. If you don't like recoil (like me), then I would go with the 22 twister using 300-400 grainer boolits. 20 twist would be more than good for the average joe not knowing his shooting requirements. ... felix
    felix

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftiye View Post
    So a 1 in 22 twist would be slow in a 45-70?
    Leftiye

    Absolutely not. 1-22 works extremely well with bullets up through 500 gr. Frankford Arsenal probably shot more than any of us ever will figuring this out from 1870 (began development of what became the 45-70) up through the adoption of the 500 gr bullet in 1881/82. They shat them at quite long ranges with several different twists.

    I've shot trapdoors with 22" twists for years out to 1200 yards with several different bullet designs. All shot well and right alongside rifles with 18 and 20" twists. My target TD favors the Rapine 460500 (orignal arsenal design that drops .4615-.462" from the mold).

    Larry Gibson

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azduke View Post
    I have a Navy Arms rolling block action.I am planning on putting a .45-70 barrel on
    it.I am planning on using the 300,the 400 and 500 grain bullets.I am also planning on this one strictly as a blackpowder rifle.Would a twist of 1 in 20 be good or not.Would like to get the most accurate twist as possible.Planning on at leasta 28 inch barrel,havent figured out if it should be octagon or round,and what was the carbine/cavalry load
    1/20 twist will work fine, altho you may have a problem finding a barrel with that twist in it, most barrels now are running the 18 twist, with some folks moving on to 16 for really heavy bullets and long range shooting.
    I shoot 350 gr fp cast from the lyman mold for the 45-75,stoked with 70 grs of goex Cartridge,as an off hand load, out of my C Sharps with an 18 twist and any misses found on the score sheet are not the fault of the rifle or the load.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I have rifles with 18, 20 and 22 twist rates and with any boolit 500 or less gr I can not tell the difference out to 600 yards. The 18 twist rate gives a bit more accuracy at 600 yards and further with heavier bullets than 500 gr. Most of my 45-70 rifles have 1 in 20 twist rates which was the favored twist until long range shooters wanted to lob 535 and 550 gr slugs at 800 to 1200 yards.

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    My rifle is a 8 groove 20 twist ,28 inch rebarreled mark 4 martini,in 45-70 govt.
    510gr spire point plan base cast bollit.
    Stable to 975 yards, max distance of my range.
    With proper sights and some work -can be done.
    Have fun, little groups are for 6.5-284-long range shooters-I also do that.
    Heavy cast bullets I choose for hours of fun.
    Best to all !!!!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Leftiye

    Absolutely not. 1-22 works extremely well with bullets up through 500 gr. Frankford Arsenal probably shot more than any of us ever will figuring this out from 1870 (began development of what became the 45-70) up through the adoption of the 500 gr bullet in 1881/82. They shat them at quite long ranges with several different twists.

    I've shot trapdoors with 22" twists for years out to 1200 yards with several different bullet designs. All shot well and right alongside rifles with 18 and 20" twists. My target TD favors the Rapine 460500 (orignal arsenal design that drops .4615-.462" from the mold).

    Larry Gibson
    Here's a link to some of the LONG RANGE testing that was done at Sandy Hook, NJ.

    http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targe.../sandyhook.htm
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Sandy Hook

    I've read the different accounts about the Sandy Hook trials over the years but have never seen the official, real and complete report. Wish it were available.
    No matter, one of the most interesting things about the trials was that they were able to recover and study a great number of the bullets shot over those extreme long distances. Seems they were looking for a longer range with more penetration and decent accuracy out of the service round... of course that required bullet stability. One piece of evidence would be the recovered bullets. I think, I haven't read the account recently, that most all- if not all- the 45 cal 405 and 500 gr bullets recovered out of the beach sand showed clear evidence that they entered point first--- at the extreme ranges shot at the 20-35 degree angle?? above horizon. That seemed to indicate to them that the bullets remained stable. That evidence was in addition to the basic POIs on the large backers and the penetration study done on the wood planks. In turn, all that testing brought about the transition to the 500 gr 45-70 service round.

    Now to the best twist question... 500 grain bullet stability in the 22 twist (standard trapdoor 45-70)... Probably that is right at the margin- my guess.

    If I were to order a custom barrel right now for cast shooting out of the 45-70 for both smokeless and black/ for both soft and harder alloy in most bullet weights suitable for the 45-70.... it'd be either 18 or 20 twist. If I were to shoot only say 350-425 grain bullets then I'd be tempted to go with the 20-22 twist.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    An 18 twist is for heavy boolits only. 500 grs. or better. If you want to shoot 300, 400 and 500 graines from the same barrel. Just remeber, a 20 twist is a compromise. The 400's will most likely shoot the best. The 300's and 500's with be just a little off, but not enough to worry about it. Just have fun with it.
    Bill

  13. #13
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    I notice that the angle of impact is measured from the vertical - those rounds were REALLY running out of steam, coming in @ 30 degrees or thereabouts from VERTICAL, about 60 degrees from horizontal, and all this with only 20-25 degrees of elevation at the firing point. Interesting...
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    extreme ranges

    Yes,
    With the ballistic track coming in at such extreme angles for the farthest testing done it does indicate they were approaching maximum horizontal range. To visualize- have to take a parabolic curve, slice it down the axis and lay it on it's side (the bullet's complete trajectory). or something like that

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by azduke View Post
    I have a Navy Arms rolling block action.I am planning on putting a .45-70 barrel on
    it.I am planning on using the 300,the 400 and 500 grain bullets.I am also planning on this one strictly as a blackpowder rifle.Would a twist of 1 in 20 be good or not.Would like to get the most accurate twist as possible.Planning on at leasta 28 inch barrel,havent figured out if it should be octagon or round,and what was the carbine/cavalry load
    I rebarreled my .45-70 Navy Rolling Block 24 years ago in a 1-18 twist and 32 inches long tapered hexigon. It will shoot 1 inch and less at 100 yards 290 grain up to 550 grain... No regrets on the 1-18 twist !

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
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    With the club I belong to we shoot at Quantico Marine Corp base in Virginia.We can use the
    1,000 yard range(range 4)Been using a Remington 1903-A3,and my old sniper rifle,chambered
    for the 50 bmg,recoil doesnt really bug me just want something different and something that
    will make there jaws drop when I hit the target with a blackpowder load.plannuing on using all bullet weights for target shooting and hunting

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    EasyEd what part of Tuscon are you from.lived in Phoenix and went to Tucson allot
    Last edited by azduke; 07-12-2008 at 10:09 PM. Reason: misspelled word

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    reloading place in Tucson

    EasyEd I used to do allot of business with a place in Tucson.The nape f the place was Lathrops shooters supplies.can you tell me if they are still in business

  19. #19
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    Talking Twist Rate in 45Caliber

    I would go with a 1-18" twist so I would have the option of shooting the longer Creedmoor type boolits. I have found that it is easier to get a good load when you use a boolit that is heaver for the caliber, the lightest boolit that I use in my 45-70 is 400gr. As a note Browning did a good study on the black powder rifles before they came out with the 1885 BPCR and they put a 1-18" twist in both the 45-70 and 45-90, and a 1-16" in the 40-65. I agree that a 1-22" twist is great for the 1881 Govt bullet but, this is a shorter round nose bullet then the Creedmoor type, 530-560grs. If I was to error on the twist rate, I would error on a faster twist. I have all of Paul Matthews books and in several of his books he mentions that the twist that he had the gun built for would not stabilize the boolit because it was too slow, and that it was a costly error. I like to shoot long range and I study all the information that I can, and nobody that is shooting a 45 cal at 1000yds. and winning is using a twist slower then 1-18", as a matter in fact the new boolits that they are experimenting with require a 1-16" twist.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Talking 45-70 Cavalry Load

    The load that the Govt used in the trapdoor carbine was a 405gr. boolite that had a slight hollow base, and used 55grs. of black powder with fillers to take up the space. LEE makes the boolit mould, and the best book on this IMHO is ( LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL .45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE) by J.S. and Pat Wolf. in it he explains how the govt changed the 405gr boolit from a flat base to the slight hollow base. The book has a lot of drawings from the govt arsenal and a lot of information. This is a great book if you are interested in the 45-70 and mostly about the ammunition that the govt had manfactured for it and the requirements for it, very detailed.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check