Help with a carcano mystery caliber

[3006guns]

Well, there are those made by Beretta. The examples illustrated by RL Wilson in his book are a joy to behold

Thank you.........the only ones I ever encountered were in the early sixties (bought a 6.5 carbine when I was 16) and a few at gun shows. The workmanship on them was "ordinary" at best and all had sewer pipe bores. During those times, they were referred to as "spaghetti guns" with as much of a sneer as you could muster.

I always wondered how a country capable of producing Ferrari's, etc. had such problems making something as simple as a firearm. As usual with such things it seems there was quality, and there was "ho hum" quality........most of which got exported to the surplus markets here in the U.S.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It is true that they seemed to have mostly imported the poorer specimens. I recall the term "spaghetti guns", but always thought it was a reference primarily aimed at the oddly grained stocks, most of which seemed to be on the rifles made at Terni, and just secondarily at the ethnicity. I do recall in the middle 1950s when I got my first high powered rifle, an SMLE for about $25 that the Carcanos were selling for around $16 and were followed by all the dire rumors about their strength. But I knew several teenagers that got one as their first rifle because that was what they could afford, and subsequently got their first deer with them. I just sort of ignored them for many years, being interested in other rifles, but about 25 years ago suddenly caught the Carcano bug after seeing a documentary on their use in the two World Wars. Over a period of time I acquired several, and honestly find them to be very respectable and in some ways ingenious. The early ones had "gain twist" rifling, which means that the rate of twist increased the further down the bore the bullet traveled. I acquired two of the M-1941 rifles in almost unissued condition, and the finish on them isn't any better or worse than other nation's rifles of the same time period. Attached are a couple of photos of my 8mm carbine. I did refinish it, but like most military rifles that I've refinished it had nothing to lose. You know--the old controversy about should a dinged up military rifle be refinished/restored, or is the accumulated abuse part of history. They reach a point, in my opinion, when their condition has bottomed out their value and one can only go uphill by cleaning them up. I like my firearms to look the best that they can for my own enjoyment and pleasure, but others may disagree. And, if it's their firearm, their disagreement is their right.

Attachment 164452Attachment 164453

The history of these 8x57mm carbines is kind of murky. I've read that they were converted to 8mm by the Italians for troops serving in N. Africa so as to be able to use German ammunition when their supplies became tenuous. Second version, that after Italy surrendered to the Allies, the rifles were converted for use by the Italian Fascist units that continued to fight with the Germans. Third version, that they were converted by the Israelis who standardized on the 8mm round upon becoming independent and were desperate for rifles. Apparently thousands of Carcanos stayed behind in N. Africa after the war and were something they could acquire. Perhaps there is some truth to all the stories. This one did come from Israel, according to the importer, and had seen very heavy use. As with all Carcanos, the en-bloc clip required to use it as a repeater is a problem; but more so with this version as the base of the 8mm cartridge is larger than the base of the 6.5 and 7.35mm Italian rounds, which are the same and utilize the same clip. An original clip must be modified to hold the 8mm cartridge, and although there are several methods of doing it, only one or two seem to work. Somewhat. There are some "how to do it" U-tube videos on the subject. Somewhere there must be a stockpile of factory made8mm clips since the rifles were issued converted to 8mm for military use, but I've never seen an original.

DG

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've just realized I'm not entirely sure, but I don't believe the 7.35mm. Carcano had the gain-twist rifling of the 6.5mm. versions. This is pity for the cast bullet shooter, since the gain twist does ease stress on the bullet. It does mean that a shortened long Carcano rifle with a shortened barrel is likely to fail to stabilize the normal bullet. The Italians converted some this way themselves, I think into police carbines or some such, although it wasn't the usual thing. But it is something you will very likely find in a shortened sporting rifle.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Indeed, it was only the earlier 6.5 version that had the gain twist rifling. I also believe that at about the time the 7.35 mm version was adopted an ordinary rifling pattern was used in the subsequent 6.5 production as well. Anyway, peering down the bores of the examples I own I only see it present in those made in the 1920s and earlier.

[Rustyleee]

You might also check to see if it has been rechambered to 8x57mm Mauser. Many were for commonality of ammunition with the Germans. I have one, and it's a great shooter, but I shoot reduced (about .30-30 level) loads in it. That's less because of strength and more because it's short and light.

Years ago when I had an FFL a buddy of mine saw them for sale in Shotgun News that had been rechambered to 8mm. He had me order one for him.

[nekshot]

those that were converted to 8mm were proofed at very respectable pressure. I have a note on exact details of that proofing but I figure the naysayers will only voice the old 'THEY BLOW UP LIKE POP GUNS" mantra. I played with these enough to know they have real customizing potential and only the scope mount situation takes away from customizing. I did recently took one of mine and set up with a scope over bolt but it took a lot of time. Doing them with scout mounts is ideal and that is what I have on my other one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Indeed, it was only the earlier 6.5 version that had the gain twist rifling. I also believe that at about the time the 7.35 mm version was adopted an ordinary rifling pattern was used in the subsequent 6.5 production as well. Anyway, peering down the bores of the examples I own I only see it present in those made in the 1920s and earlier.

Yes, I know they gave it up, possibly in the course of the war, for it complicates production, and offers an enhanced chance of doing the job badly.

It works when it is well done, but not quite as well as some would have us believe, because although it reduces the force required to impart rotational acceleration, it requires some extra to keep modifying the engraving of the bullet. Probably it would be better if it was ever used in old-fashioned artillery, which had round studs in the shell to engage with the rifling.

Italy's political developments in the course of the war left them with a lot of Carcanos which nobody wanted to take away from them. I believe the 8mm. ones were exported, including to Egypt. If the Germans actually converted any, it was unusual. They got a lot of Carcanos after thieves fell out, and issued them to the Volkssturm and various odd goon squads, but I think the great majority were unaltered 6.5mm.

[perotter]

......
If the Germans actually converted any, it was unusual. They got a lot of Carcanos after thieves fell out, and issued them to the Volkssturm and various odd goon squads, but I think the great majority were unaltered 6.5mm.

While the Germans planned on converting a 1,250,000 to 8mm, they only converted 15,420. These will have a stock recoil bolt in them. A wooden piece was put in them to block the magazine well and thus were converted to single shots. None appear to have been issued to the Volksstrum. Police units and auxiliaries got them.

The Italians convert some to 8mm for their units that served on the Russian front. The Greeks also converted some to 8mm.

I really like the 6.5 Carcano. A brother of mine has carbine that is very accurate at a bit over 1 moa. I have a few hundred rounds of surplus 7.35 I bought about 10 years ago at a local shop for $0.20 a round in the clips. I bought it to get the clips, but have never removed the ammo from them. Guess I need to get 7.35 to assist in the task.

[Earlwb]

Well I do have a few Carcanos myself, that I got years ago. I had ideas on converting or rebarreling them, etc.
They made several different rifles chambered for different cartridges at the time.
The classic was the 6.5x52mm Carcano round, then there was the late war 7.35x52mm one, 7.92x57 Mauser (I think this was Afrika Corps WWII issue rifles, so that they would be compatible with the Germans), then they also made a bunch of rifles for the Japanese in 6.5x50mm Arisaka too. There appears to be a number of rifles chambered for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Shoenouer as well, these were probably Greek military rifles used during WWII under the German occupation.

I would suggest making a chamber cast to determine what you really have. Also slugging the bore to see what the bore size is, is good too.

There are a number of similar cartridge sizes that one may be able to rechamber the rifles for too. So one may be able to rechamber them for something more useful in certain cases.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There isn't really any more useful cartridge for which either of the Carcanos can be rechambered. While there is nothing wrong with the rechambering for the 6.5mm. Mannlicher-Schoenauer, the 6.5mm. Carcano is close to identical, with brass at least as available, and can be loaded up to the same performance. Most common American cartridges are wider in the body and won't function with the clips and magazine. In the case of the 7.35mm. the bore needs to be reamed and re-rifled or the rifle will be very dangerous with .308 bullets, and very very dangerous with 8mm. ones. But the rifle isn't likely to end up good value for the price of a present-day re-rifling job.

[leadman]

Thankfully the Carcanos are stronger than most would think. I bought one recently that is part sporterized. I bought dies but the brass did not show up right away so a friend gave me some WWII military ammo. The cases had been tumbled to clean them and I was leery of firing them so I pulled about 10 of the cases apart. I dumped the powder and picked a starting load from a manual, confirming it from several sources. I reused the military bullets. This would prove to be an almost disastrous error.

I took the gun to the range for testing. The first cartridge fired and all was normal and there was a hole in the 25 yard target. I loaded another cartridge and when I fired it things went very wrong. Gas and debris blew out of the gun and the bolt would not open. I used a rubber mallet at home to get it open. The case was formed to the recess in the bolt face and the primer smeared on the case base.
I had weighed the charges so to confirm the weights I pulled down the rest I loaded and they were all on the money. That left the bullets so I inspected them and found one that seemed to have a loose core. I cut it open and found the lead core in 3 pieces. These are on open base FMJ bullet so my theory is the core was loose on the one I fired and let the pressure into the jacket (very long 160gr) and expanded it before all of the bullet had entered the rifling.
I pulled the rest of the ammo down and found about 1/3 had loose and broken cores in the bullet jackets.
There was no damage to the gun or to me, except for a small scratch on my glasses. I have since fired PPU ammo and all was normal. I can only guess at what the pressure might have been to cause the cartridge to fill in the recess along the outer edge of the bolt face and smear the primer. The case body also showed signs of very high pressure.
I'm glad that the little rifle proved to be strong enough to contain the pressure and keep me unharmed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What you describe, if unaccompanied by a ring bulge in the bore, is hard to explain. The best I can do is that perhaps the jacket ruptured, leaving a jacket metal ring in the bore. Cupro-nickel, which I believe these bullets were, can become brittle if annealed at excessive temperatures. If a bullet encounters any substantial obstruction on its way down the barrel, however, you are almost sure to find a ring bulge, just a little further along than the place where the collision occurs. This is because the moving gases, catching up with the bullet, form a wave of very high local pressure.

This does fit pressure expanding the jacket to fill the throat of the chamber, so that it was never separated from the second bullet. The effect was just that of an extra-heavy and extra-tight bullet. There was no deceleration, only impeded acceleration, so the gases didn't catch up on the bullet, and there was no bulge.

[tjbunion]

I also have a Carcano, in 7.35 caliber. Twenty years ago someone gave me an ammo can of original 7.35 ammo in the clips and the original cardboard boxes dated 1939. Naturally I had to get a rifle to shoot this ammo, and found a bubba sporter at a local show for about 40 bucks. I can still hear the sigh of relief from the seller when I relieved him of it. I shot some of the military ammo, and it went bang with no misfires or hangfires, but shot 8 inches high at 100 yards. I learned later that the battle sights were intended to be that way. I shot up a few boxes of the military stuff, but was not in love with the rifle and sold it at another show for what I paid for it. In the last few years I have become more interested in World War 2 rifles, and bought another 7.35 Carcano but also bought an original stock to put it back in military form. I found that there was some Privi brass available and Hornady 123 gr. bullets, so bought 100 cases and a few hundred bullets so I could load some ammo when I ran out of the old stuff. The old stuff still shoots very well after all these years, but I have not loaded any new ammo yet. I have never read that anyone altered a Carcano to any practical other caliber, but have tried a 7.62 x 39 case in the clip and it fits well. If a surplus AK or SKS barrel could be fitted to the action it might make a fun conversion that could use common and plentiful components and cast boolits. There are a lot of bubba specials around for cheap that will never be worth much as is, so it could work well as a fun plinker.

[leadman]

Ballistics in Scotland, I found no bulge in the barrel and no damage otherwise. Bought some Privi ammo and it fires with no problems. Have not had time to give it a good work out but it seems to be ok.

If I owned the OP rifle I would make a chamber cast to confirm caliber/cartridge. Even a wax cast will provide enough info for a determination of what it shoots.
Cerrosafe would be a good investment to get a good cast out of the chamber. Could be way less costly than damaged body parts.

[TCLouis]

Chamber cast!

[Frank46]

Some of these rifles could be chambered in 7.62x39 and also 35 remington. I have a semi ratty carbine that was giving serious thought to having a slimmed down 1919A4 308 machine gun barrel chambered for the little russian cartridge and used for cast bullets. I had a Belgian machine gun barrel with Liege proof marks and for years couldn't fighue out what the caliber was. Was messing around with some 303 British ammo and stuck one round in the chamber and after all these years found it was chambered for the 303Brit. The trigger can be cleaned up an lightened. If you ever find out what the rifle is chambered for there are a lot of us who would like to hear the final outlook. Frank

[Earlwb]

yes that was what I was thinking about doing with some of my Carcanos I got too. A short carbine in 7.62x29 and maybe another in .35 Remington too.
I sorta like the little Carcano carbines. I have one that is semi-sportized with a side mount weaver scope on it that still shoots the 6.5 Carcano rounds. since I reload it isn't a problem of course. But I have plans on one day getting some converted to the other cartridges though.

[Earlwb]

I was reading recently about the elusive mythological 8x57 Carcano clips. it appears that one can take a regular Carcano clip spread the sides some and fit in up to five 8mm cartridges into it. You may have to dremel the top rear edge a little in some cases to get the top round to feed Ok. But it ought to work. The other thought was that they used the regular Mauser 8x57 five round clips instead. So it may just work one way or the other in this case. But using a small Carcano carbine with 8x57mm Mauser rounds ought to make for one heck of a handy carbine. When I get the time I will have to look into this more and see if it really works one way or the other.