PP for a Rossi R92, 44 mag lever gun

[oley55]

I have a Rossi R92 (lever gun), SS, 44 mag, 24" barrel. The groove in this rifle is fairly large (.4330", .4330", .4326"). I tried to measure the bore/lands from a slug, but couldn't get a reliable measurement. I do however have some minus pin gauges and the .426" (.4258") pin fits loosely in the barrel, while the .427" (.4268") will not quite enter the muzzle (no surprise with the .0004" squish). I have done some fire lapping and have knocked off the really rough edges and it feels good enough to at least try some cast bullets in it.

With this size bore/groove I thought PP might be the way for me to to run some cast bullets for hunting without much expense (custom cast GC .434" bullets at $0.35 each, or custom molds and etc). Especially since I have not yet entered the world of casting.

My initial thought was to buy some economical 240 gr, .429/.430" commercial cast bullets, sized them down to .427 with a Lee bullet sizer, patch them, and then final size with another Lee sizer honed out to .434" (I already have one at .4338"). FYI, I loaded a dummy round with a .4347" slug and it chambered just fine. The throat however is pretty long and rounds that reach the throat will not cycle.

But after reading the stickies and many other posts, I am beginning to doubt myself. It seems as though I have the cart before the horse. PP is not in lieu of casting, but rather another part of the science of boolet casting. So where am I, off in the weeds, or what?

FYI: I have a copy of "The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews" on order.

[Harter66]

I patched a 45 Colts 92' a yr or so ago with an over sized 430426.
The results really weren't worth the effort of patching but I was shopping for more than making it work.

Here's what you have . At even 432 OD you probably want a 426-7 core at 430 you're likely to need closer to 425. 432 isn't (based on several years of reading here) all that uncommon for a 44 . Getting a 434 dia might be a challenge but not completely overwhelming.

You may be a little ahead of the cart but I think your horse is in the harness .

[oley55]

Harter66, thank you for the reply, but I remain a bit confused.

If I read your post correctly, my core bullet should be .005" smaller than my desired finished PP bullet.(?) With my bore/groove at .433", what size should the finished PP bullet be?

[Digital Dan]

Read Matthews' book, follow his advice and move on.


You might benefit from a card wad and folding the patch over the bottom rather than twisting a tail. I did.

[oley55]

oley55: FYI: I have a copy of "The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews" on order.

Digital Dan: Read Matthews' book, follow his advice and move on.

Got it. No more questions, no more wondering out loud until the book arrives and I have read it.

[Nobade]

I size mine to .427" (off the shelf Lee sizer) and patch with 9# onionskin that adds .006". So bullets end up at .433" with no sizing, and are a perfect slip fit in fired cases. No resizing, and a very light taper crimp just to keep it together. Seated out to just touch the lands, .030" card wad under the bullet and a compressed charge of IMR4227 it shoots amazingly well and pushes a 240gr. bullet to 1900 fps. (Marlin 1894, 20" barrel) I do patch tailless, Hythe style. Tails don't help accuracy and large diameter bullets like this are easy to do tailless.

-Nobade

[kungfustyle]

I got a NOE mold that is .434 you can also get a .432 mold and powder coat the lead if it doesn't pour at .433. It will work but also you will need a .434 sizer Buckshot on this board makes them or Lee will custom make a push through for you if you don't have a Lube sizer. good luck to you. I am in the process of doing this with my Rossi 44 right now. Got a Lee mold from a member here and it pours at .432 w/ tumble lube we are at .433 just right didn't need to size them.

[Harter66]

Bore is the minor diameter of the rifling lands . Groove is the groove major diameter. Generally speaking for smokeless powder your core should be about .001 larger than the rifling land diameter and the patch should be .001 larger than groove diameter. The patch should also be a firm slip/press fit in a fire unsized case.

However I had a rifle with a .305x.316 bore x groove that had a case neck, throat and leade that would blissfully except a .320 and shot best with a 310 core and dry wrapped to .317 which ignores all of the thumb rules and guides.
Your paper should fill the major diameter of the bbl and have .001 compression or more as needed while your core should ,unpatched , should make rifling contact the full length of the bbl being .001 larger than the smallest diameter of the bbl . In some rifles you will find a need for heavier paper to fill the fired case mouth and the leade/throat area. Some will need lighter paper to fit well in shallow rifling.

If your bbl is .425 x .432 then you need a core of .426 and paper to make 2 full wraps to bring your finished OD up to .433 , in a perfect example. You may have to fidget a little if for example your unsized case is .435 ID for example. Then you would or rather I would try a fatter paper to get a wet wrapped finished bullet at .4358-.436 or a dry wrapped of 437. Then I'd try neck sizing and fiddle with a sized ID of .433-4 and repeat with the dry and/or wet wrapped sized accordingly.

This is of course dependent on what your goals are with the gun . In the case of the Colts I was loading for above I was looking for velocity gains without pressure gains but found that it was only available at the top end loads where consistency was fading. In the sks it was to avoid a custom mould that would have cost more than the rifle ,in a surprise plus consistency was better than factory or jacketed and I got big velocity gains for bullet weights.
Last is just to see if jacketed speeds are attainable with cast and normal powders. No I'm not even close in a 264 WM but I have gone faster in a 6.8 SPCII than jacketed speeds with consistency.
I think for what you're looking for naked cast will do the job but you're welcome to give it a go ,I have . If I had other powders to try I would definitely try it again, I might hit a combination that really sings or not .

See your PMs please.

[DerekP Houston]

I have a 4 hole NOE SWC size 434 as well if you are looking...bought the wrong size by accident.

[oley55]

I have a 4 hole NOE SWC size 434 as well if you are looking...bought the wrong size by accident.

thanks for the offer, but if buying a mold I would try for something with a wide flat nose. gotta love those big ole meplats.

[Digital Dan]

Oley, you might want to reconsider that. I'm shooting pure lead 300 grain swagged bullets, patched pretty much as described by Mr. Harter. The bullets do have a small meplate but are essentially a round nose flat base design. They look like this after running into flesh and bone:



They shoot like this:

[oley55]

To all who commented, thank you.

Unfortunately it seems all my considerations for finding an appropriately sized cast or PP bullet for this Rossi R92 was for not. I did some putzing around and loaded a dummy .4338" cast bullet into a sized case, and a dummy .4338" PP bullet into a fire formed case from this rifle. Although they will chamber, regardless of COAL neither would cycle. A closer look revealed the cases would not pass between the guide rails (if that's the right name). I slipped my dial caliper in there and came up with .454" between the rails. The OD case dimensions were .4570" and .4578".

Lesson learned. I knew the chamber size was critical to this whole endevor. I just never gave a thought to the width between the guide rails.

I do not have much experience with lever guns and am more than reluctant to start removing metal and really screwing this rifle up. No idea just how wide it would need to be to ensure function with various brass brands and etc.. So for the time being I'll have to settle on jacketed bullets in this one.

Edit added: Please disregard most if not all of this last post. There is apparently no substitute for knowledge and ignorance can be cured. Well sometimes if willing to listen and learn.

[oley55]

Well after reading The Paper Patch cover to cover (delivered and read on 3/25/16) and now working through it more thoroughly a second time, I finally realize I wasn't grasping some of what what was being offered me in this thread.

If I am reading and understanding correctly, the groove diameter means very little (if anything) in regards to paper patching. As per page 21, my finished patched bullet would ideally be .0005" larger than bore diameter. Although I think it could be a bit larger. However, there is absolutely no reason or need for the finished patched bullet to be equal to the groove diameter.

Since via pin gauges I can reasonably place the bore diameter between .426-.427. So assuming I'm at .427", a finished patched bullet of .4275" loaded in a case would still be well below the width (.454") of my guide rails.

In summary and if I'm reading and understanding correctly, an appropriately sized cast bullets will not function in this rife, while an appropriately sized patched bullet will. And now it is time to carefully and accurately measure the bore and proceed from there.

[Nobade]

It's all going to depend on how it's throated. You'll end up with a bullet patched to be a nice slip fit in a fired case, whatever size that is probably around ,433". But as to length, you want the patch to touch the rifling. That could be just barely sticking out of the case, to not even having the bullet in the case. In my own rifle the bullet is only barely in the case, and the loaded round is way too long to function through the action, so I use it as a single shot. Other posters have indicated they could seat bullets deep enough to function just fine. So it will all depend on how your own rifle is made.

-Nobade

[oley55]

It's all going to depend on how it's throated. You'll end up with a bullet patched to be a nice slip fit in a fired case, whatever size that is probably around ,433". But as to length, you want the patch to touch the rifling. That could be just barely sticking out of the case, to not even having the bullet in the case. In my own rifle the bullet is only barely in the case, and the loaded round is way too long to function through the action, so I use it as a single shot. Other posters have indicated they could seat bullets deep enough to function just fine. So it will all depend on how your own rifle is made.

-Nobade

Although not recommended I was planning to try PP at a COAL that would still cycle and see what the accuracy will be, or is that a complete waste of effort? However an empty fired case will not pass between the guides so some minor sizing will be needed or possibly some fire formed brass from a tighter 44 mag.

[Nobade]

Wow, that's wild the chamber is that big! Yes, guess you'll have to do some sizing. As for OAL, it won't hurt anything to try it and see how it works!

-Nobade