223 AR load data help

[BrassMagnet]

All of my cast boolit load manuals only show load data for bolt/single shot rifles and expressly state the data won't work for the AR platform.
I have received numerous PMs/phone calls seeking assistance with moulds/cast boolits and/or load data suitable for the AR-15 in .223 Rem.
I know we could shoot bolt/single shot loads in slow fire mode even if we have to manually eject the fired case. This is not what I desire to do.
I want to load rounds that function the AR normally and achieve reasonable accuracy.
Powders I know have been successfully used with jacketed bullets are Varget, Reloader 15, and IMR-3031.
Jacketed bullet weights I know have been used successfully are 52, 53, 55, 62, 69, 70, 75, and 77 in magazine length loads and 80 in single load lengths.

This jacketed bullet info leads me to believe I should be looking at these powders and cast boolit weights from 50 to 80 grains. Due to the feed ramp and feed cycle I believe cast spire pointed boolits such as 224450/225-48-SP would likely be too damaged to perform unless single loaded. Due to velocities I believe only gas checked designs should be considered.

Moulds available to test are:

Lyman 224450
NOE 225-48-SP
Lyman 225415
Ohaus 22-058-R
RCBS 22-060-FN
HM2 225-62-1
Mihec 227-65
NOE 22570
Mihec 227-75

Boolits cast and ready to size/gas check with Tac1 are:

Mihec 227-65
NOE 22570
Mihec 227-75

These were cast with an alloy that is close to 3% tin, 4.5% antimony, and the rest lead. They may be too soft. For this use we may have to go to Lyman #2 or linotype to succeed with this.

I have some volunteers ready to test these boolits in ARs

So here is what I am looking for:

Unsuccessful loads you have tried in an AR.
Successful loads you have tried in an AR.
Links to relevant testing.

[davidheart]

Found this thread from 2012: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...st-Bullet-Test

Recently I was wondering about shooting cast bullets out of an AR-15. In checking the web all I found was much discussion about how you could not use cast bullets in an AR-15, and like most things on the web, there were lots of opinions with few them based on actual information. So I thought I would conduct a test of cast bullets in the AR-15 by firing 500 rounds through one and see how it went. The primary focus of the test was to see if cast bullets could reliably function in an AR-15, with accuracy a secondary issue.

I used a Colt A2 upper with a 20” barrel with a 1 X 12” twist. It appears to be a Model 1 Sales barrel that does not appear to be chrome lined. I shot all targets at 25 yards because as stated the primary goal of the test was 100% functioning of the gun with cast bullets, not finding the most accurate load. I also decided not to clean the gun during the duration of the test to see if a build up of lead or lube would cause any malfunctions.

I got on EBAY and found a Lyman 224415 single cavity die and a 224 sizing die for sale at a very reasonable price, so I bought them.



My standard load for 223 is 26 grains of WW-748 behind either a 55 grain or 62 grain milsurp bullet. When I tried that load with the cast bullet, I ended up with a silver soldered flash hider, and no idea where the bullets were impacting.



I reduced the load down to 16 grains of 748 and then worked back up until it would reliably eject the case and load another round. I found that with 22 grains of WW-748, the load would reliably function in the Rock River AR-15 Pistol I was using at the time for load development (the idea being a AR-15 pistol would be more finicky than a rifle, so if it worked in the pistol it would in the rifle).

Due to the blunt nose of the Lyman bullet, I was only getting the bullets to feed properly about 80% of the time. I then tried a custom Lee Bator bullet that Midsouth Shooters Supply offered, while it was more accurate than the Lyman, but had to be hand fed to work.



I decided to spend real money and bought the RCBS 55 grain spire point bullet mold and that solved all my feeding problems.



The bullets were cast primarily out of wheel weight with a little linotype mixed in, they were sized .224 and had gas checks placed on them during sizing. They were only casually inspected for wrinkles, voids and so on. Cases were military surplus brass, Reloading the cases followed the standard procedures, with the exception of using a Lyman M die to expand the case necks and then a lee factory crimp die to crimp the reloaded cases.

I proceeded to shoot the first 250 rounds in intervals of 10 or 20 rounds at a time while I was shooting other stuff (I am retired so I have lots of time on my hands). I then decided to shoot the other 250 rounds in a single setting in a very short amount of time to maximize the stress on the gun.



The 250 rounds were fired in about 15 minutes with the barrel too hot to touch by the end of it. There were no malfunctions of any kind during the test.

Here is a picture of the bolt at the end of the 500 round test.



I was able to put 500 rounds of cast bullets through an AR-15 without cleaning it and did not have any problems or malfunctions at all. The test showed (to me at least), that AR-15's can be made to work consistently with cast bullets. In regard to accuracy, I didn't see any significant change in accuracy, but I wasn't really testing for it.

I have submitted a more detailed version of this post to cast pics. It includes more detailed photos of the bullets, targets and so on.

45 2.1 posted this in the Mihec 5.56 rerun.

(1.175" 5 shot group at 100 yds. on 4/26/12 by Hamish in a DPMS 16" 9 twist barrel, Velocity 2443 fps Avg.)

I understand the importance of this testing. Will help in whatever way I can! Personally we're looking at a 1/9 twist and 1/8 twist. To me, 1 inch at 100 is acceptable accuracy with cast boolits to call this experiment a success.

Have you thought about powder coating gas checked boolits too? I'd imagine powder coating would result in less leading and prevent the gas system from being fouled quickly.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have no 'real' experience, but I have been reading about this in threads, on and off, for years. I have only shot reduced (bolt action) loads in my AR. But from what I've read, if and when I start going down the AR-15 road with cast, I will try H4895 first.

Using the google search box with "AR 4895" will get you all the same threads I've read. From what I've read, one nice thing about H4895 is it can be downloaded to 60% their MAX load
http://www.hodgdon.com/
Which will let you Zero in on the lowest pressure load to cycle your rifle's action and whence, give the widest range to search for best accuracy.


PS IMR4895 is not the same, although they are similar, I don't think Dupont recommends the 60% download thing.

[davidheart]

If H4895 is the ticket I'm up a creek. I have never seen that powder in stock anywhere for the past 3 years...

[RoyEllis]

I can't take credit (got the info from Lamar..run5run) for my ar loads. Started @ 18.5gr H4895 & worked up to best accuracy with great function @21.6gr pushing the NOE 225-55fn copy of the RCBS boolit, cast of a 3/5/92 alloy water dropped. Hope this helps ya some!
Have a blessed day, Alan R Ellis

To davidheart....check sponsor Midsouth Shooters they have H4895 8lb'ers in stock right now

[aspangler]

Don't have the molds you are useing but I do have the Lyman 58gr gc. I use 22.5 grains of Alliant Varmint and get 1-1 1/2" groups at 100. Hope this helps.

[BrassMagnet]

Don't have the molds you are useing but I do have the Lyman 58gr gc. I use 22.5 grains of Alliant Varmint and get 1-1 1/2" groups at 100. Hope this helps.

Which Lyman mould number?

[davidheart]

I found this post by Larry Gibson about his 1:9 twist AR shooting a Loverin design boolit. Post number 5: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-556-223-molds

Most really pointed cast bullets suffer in accuracy if pushed to typical velocities that are needed for ARs to function. The other problem is the short neck of the .223 and the relatively short throats. A cast bullet with a pointy nose can shoot very well at HV IF the bearing surface is 50+ %, preferably 60 - 65%. Those dimensions must be balanced against the bullets weight for use in the AR. The 225450 runs right at 50% bearing surface and usually is about a perfect fit in milsurp chambers with the GC at the base of the case neck and the front kissing the leade. Seated that way 1 lube groove is usually exposed though. The 225450 usually only weighs about 50 gr fully dressed though. Thus I never had much useful accuracy above 2000 fps (using a standard ternary AC'd alloy with a BHN of 15 - 18 +/-) in my 12" twist AR and much less in 7 - 9" twist ARs. Hardening the bullet can help a bit but there's just too much unsupported nose sticking out there.


The most accurate cast bullet (with standard AC'd ternary alloy) that I've found so far is the Lyman 225462, a Loverin design that weighs out about 58 gr fully dressed. It also, when seated as mentioned leaves a lube groove exposed. It has a bearing surface of 63% and a short round nose beyond that. I push it right at 2350 - 2400 fps with very useable accuracy to 300 yards out of my 9 and 12" twist ARs. If we look at the newer designed heavier bullets (60 - 70+ gr) that keep all the lube grooves inside the neck when seated as mentioned we see they are nose bore riders with semi "pointy" noses. The MP 227-65 is a good example. Mine runs 66 gr fully dressed and has a good fit of nose in both my 9 and 12" twist ARs. Still the nose is only supported by the top of the lands. The bullets bearing surface is only 39% which give a lot of leverage for that nose to bend to the side during higher acceleration. Thus with the same alloy as mentioned there is no velocity with accuracy improvement over the Loverin designed 225462. The advantage is simply a bit heavier bullet with no lube groove exposed and reliable functioning in fast twist ARs at a lower velocity level.


Before my usual pundits get a wedgie note the above, as stated, is with AC'd bullets of a ternary alloy with a BHN of 15 - 18. We all know that hardening the bullet through a change in alloy, heat treating or perhaps HCing them changes the level of useable accuracy at higher velocity. Over the practical range of 300 yards there isn't enough trajectory difference between the "pointy cast bullets and the RN Loverin or the semi point MP design to make much difference, especially considering the higher velocity with useable accuracy that is obtained with the latter two.


Now if we hallucinate a bit........lets build and AR with a 14" twist barrel and chamber it in .222 Remington. Then with that longer neck we can keep all the lube grooves of the Loverin 225462 inside the neck with the front driving band just kissing the leade. With a custom mould we do away with the scraper groove and make the nose semi-pointed keeping the same length. Now we're talking 2600 - 2700 fps with very useable accuracy to 400 yards if not 500 yards.


Larry Gibson

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If H4895 is the ticket I'm up a creek. I have never seen that powder in stock anywhere for the past 3 years...

I stopped by my LGS today, they have shelves full of powder ...and four 1 lbers of H4895, $27 each, in Hutchinson MN.
I realize this doesn't help you much...except to say, it's out there.

[davidheart]

I stopped by my LGS today, they have shelves full of powder ...and four 1 lbers of H4895, $27 each, in Hutchinson MN.
I realize this doesn't help you much...except to say, it's out there.

I'll just need to drive to Minnesota!

Just called the local gun shop that stocks powder. They have IMR4895 but not H4895.

[aspangler]

Which Lyman mould number?

225646. Weighs 58 grains with my 50-50 alloy and GC. Does that help? BTW full function.

[BrassMagnet]

225646. Weighs 58 grains with my 50-50 alloy and GC. Does that help? BTW full function.

Yes!
I even have a DC mould which casts one 225646 and one 311644 from the same mould!

[woodsxdragon]

Lyman has an AR specific load data book. It has cast data in it. I can check it out tonight if you'd like.

[BrassMagnet]

Lyman has an AR specific load data book. It has cast data in it. I can check it out tonight if you'd like.

Sounds good!

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

Sounds good!

Sorry for butting in,stuck inside and thought I could help.223 cast0001.pdf

[davidheart]

I have benchmark powder and according to your Lyman book is apparently perfect! That's awesome.

[woodsxdragon]

Beat me to it.
I like that book. It's not very long but it covers a decent amount of AR specific data for a decent amount of calibers

[davidheart]

Throwing this out there... Did two function tests at 25 yards. Don't have time to perform more tests today. If I get all holes touching at 25 I'll back out to 50, then 100.


1) 14gr IMR4227 - Lyman 225415 Gas checked @ .224, then powder coated two layers, then resized to .225, 50gr cast W/W, Water Dropped, ~1/2 inch at 25 yards, CCI #41 - I'll load up 14.5gr next to see if I could get all holes touching. No fouling. No pressure signs. Feels "light." I'll need to break out the chrony. EDIT: Chronographed - Average 2150fps

2) 25gr Varget (Hodgon Jacket start load) - Mihec 65gr NATO - Carnauba Red Lube - Air Cooled - 4 Inches at 25 yards - Lots of smoke, fouling, etc. - Sheesh. -_-

Two completely different loads. Two completely different results. 1:8 twist, JP Enterprises Heavy, uncolored spring option with silent capture buffer. Bolt locked back for both loads but I'd move the 4227 load up for greater reliability.

[davidheart]

I did another load for giggles... (I really should get back to work...)

Lyman 225462 loverin design, gas checked, lubed w/ unknown lube (a member sent me these bullets), 13gr IMR4227, CCI #41, 60gr as prepared. - One hole 25 yards - no fouling - bolt cycled and locked 4 of 5 times

Edit: Shot 5 more at 13.5gr IMR4227. Bolt locked back every time, but I received smoke and minor fouling - 3 same hole shots, 2 fliers. One 1" high, one 1" low. I'd shoot the next group at 13.2-13.3gr IMR4227 for a happy medium then back up. I'm not really likeing the boolit shape for the 223 cartridge. It's fat nose forces me to set the boolit deeper than I'd like in the case for the 223 Wylde chamber. Looking forward to testing the 65gr, 70gr, and 75gr boolits.

Edit: 13.3gr IMR4227 with the above boolit loverin boolit runs an average of ~2020fps. Boolit is seated to the base of the shoulder. I'd recommend 13.2gr IMR4227 for this 60gr combination. Shoots well, locks back the bolt with a heavy spring, produces some smoke, very little leading, great practice load. I'll perform more tests and record the data on this thread.

Data pulled from Lyman 44 manual - http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/OM/Lyman44.pdf - Page 23

I'll need to chrony this load and do more testing!

[davidheart]

Ran a couple loads to the chronograph today and tested for pressure signs and leading. Also added FPS to the 60gr and 50gr loads listed in the above posts.

1) 75gr Mihec Air Cooled(weighs 70gr as prepared???), Powder Coated, Gas Check, OAL 2.217, 23.5gr Varget, ~2565fps, Rounded primer, no pressure signs, Lots of leading and smoke. Locks back the bolt, Will not test for groups.

2) 75gr Mihec Air Cooled(weighs 70gr as prepared???), Powder Coated, Gas Check, OAL 2.215, 21gr H335, Avg. 2300fps, no pressure signs, primer not rounded, no leading, minimal smoke. Locks back bolt. Did not "group" at all.

3) 65gr Mihec Air Cooled (weighs 60gr as prepared), Carnauba Red Lube, sized .224, Gas Check OAL 2.215, 13gr IMR4227, Avg, 1890fps, no pressure signs, rounded primers, no leading, no smoke, bolt does not lock back , .25" @ 25 yards, I'd increase the charge in .5 increments to find a load which will lock back the bolt every time. Max load according to one site is 17gr with a jacketed bullet. Of course proceed with caution.


PS I feel like this thread doesn't belong in "Helping Hands." Shouldn't it be in "CB Loads / Military Rifles" or a similar sub-forum?