Two steps foreward, three steps back. Good thing easy isnt as much fun as a challenge

[Radarsonwheels]

Now I have a little experience loading and shooting 45-70 black powder paper patched cartridges in my dp 1874. Thanks to you all that gave me tips when I didn't know where to start, especially Charlie Montana who was kind enough to write me some thoughtful and detailed PMs to get me started.

I'm feeling good about making cartridges- at least I have a starting point so I can fix mistakes and try stuff. I am using a taper crimp die to hold the bullet so that it spins easily but doesn't fall out of the case. I decided to just use an over powder wad cut from a milk carton and rely on 1 damp/2 dry patches for fouling control. I'm using 70gn ff goex (almost a full starline case) compressed so that 3/16" of bullet fits in on top. I have paper that adds .012 wet wrapped that worked great for groove sized smokeless loads so I bought a baco .438 money bullet mold that makes nice smooth slugs. I think it was a mistake to not ask Charlie if such a small diameter was a good idea before buying it since he was helping me get started, but I am trying to make it work.

My first time out I tried it with a thinner paper wrapped to .4465 in my .450 bore. I figured it might allow follow up shots but all I got was tumbling bullets and many perfectly sideways bullet holes at fifty yards in a shotgun pattern. My next outing was with the thicker paper- the final package was at or just over .450 and took a firm push to chamber but wasn't difficult. I had high hopes! This load sucked too but at least 9/10 made round holes and not bullet profiles! Accuracy was bad. I was excited to see some 'confetti' for the first time (hard to find in snow on earlier range trips) but after I went and got it I found it was all strips cut clean around the base of the bullets! I was using the template from the stickys here so there is a line printed on the patches right where the base's corner rolls on. Here's a pic of the template, a cartridge, and all my confetti. I was getting slivers of lead on my cleaning patches too. I only found the one patch from the shank. I wonder if the way it's sliced toward the back tells me that the bullet is slugging but in a tapered way fatter at the base.


I have three things in mind to try next.

#1: I ordered some 45-90 brass to trim for my chamber. I wonder if this would fix a lot of my problems? The 'rings' of paper cut by shooting this load seem to be saying that the bullet is slugging up into my extra case space and freebore then getting cut by the leade? I'm going to put up another post (short & sweet to hopefully get concise responses) concerning this process.

#2:If filling my chamber better with brass doesn't get me 3-4 moa as a starting place for more detailed load tweaking I would strongly consider either trying some swaged or cast bullets or even just buying a mold that can use thinner onion skin paper to get to .450". Around .444 to .446ish depending on my choice of paper. Hopefully this would slug up better and allow the rifling to cut the paper more reliably. I only found one piece of confetti from the bullet shank so it is possible that the bullets are wearing streamers, especially if only the base is fattening and the wraps aren't cutting thru.

#3:A member here was kind enough to offer the use of his custom reamer for the cost of postage. It cuts a nice taper leade up to .459 then stays there as deep as you wanna spin it in. This seems like an awesome way to cleanly chamber a .458 package seated out as far as you wanna cut. Right now my chamber will hold a Lee 500gn bullet sized down to 452 then patched back up to 458 seated pretty deeply into the case- just a hint of patch shows. I know it would work great with smokeless patched to groove but with smokeless I wouldn't need as much powder capacity so then I'd be messing with dacron. Also I only really want to shoot BP in my 1874 pedersoli sharps. I already shoot grease groove smokeless in my 1895 marlin. I know most people shoot bore size with BP and have read pages and pages here and on bpcr forum. It would be neat to have a custom rifle and my gun does shoot factory jacketed ammo around 2.5moa so I figure it does what it's designed to. It would be a shame to whittle on an expensive gun if I don't have to. I know that the long taper 'paper patch chamber' vs the abrupt sammi chamber used to duplicate the bullet's experience is a muzzle loader is somewhat of a hot debate.

If you read this far I really appreciate it and I would love to hear any opinions on my load development experiments and options. My goal is to ring a 4" gong at 200 yards. Unfortunately I don't have long range or silhouette options near home. There are no 1000 yard comps in my future. I think my goals are pretty modest.

Thanks
Radar in Bucks county

[Bent Ramrod]

I am by no means fully up to speed on paper patched boolits (you'll know when I am because I'll start referring to them as "PP"), but here's a few thoughts based on my own experiences and the counsel I've gotten.

At least until you have the other variables down pat, clean and dry your bore between shots so it looks ready to be put away. I didn't start getting the results I was told were possible until I started cleaning like that. Check out Brent Danielson's advice on the use of bore pigs; this is about the speediest route to a consistently clean and dry bore. However, don't get stuck with a program (i.e., two wet patches and a dry; one bore pig and one dry patch, etc.) as a substitute for the bore condition per se. If it requires another patch or two, do it. After you have the load that works, you can see about how far you can abbreviate the cleaning without compromising accuracy.

What is your alloy, or, what is the hardness? I use slugs that are a nominal .440 to .441, and find that anything out of the range of BHN 8 to 10 gives flyers. I recently made up some 16 to 1 lead/tin boolits that were BHN 8 by my SAECO tester, and a lot of paper patch shooters swear by 16 to 1. The paper that worked best for me was in the 0.0012-00015 thickness range. Trying thicker paper to make up windage for a running fit in the bore didn't work as well. So by these results I figured that the boolits needed to be soft enough to slug up in the bore but hard enough so the nose didn't slump to one side or the other while this happened. Thick paper fell further from the muzzle than thin, and in bigger pieces, which may have affected the boolit's flight.

I also discovered a rule of thumb that states "When in doubt, add more powder." The original Sharps loading for the .45-2-1/10 was 75 grains, and I found that things didn't start happening until I got to 80 grains of Swiss 1Fg. This is almost to the top of a full-length-resized case, with just enough room for a thin wad. I would then compress 0.125" or so and seat the boolit, holding it in with a slight taper crimp as you do.

Hopefully Brent will check in here, but it looks to me like your patch fragments are getting burned along the rifling cuts. This would certainly expose some lead to the bore, which you say you noticed.

Finally, don't give up. I am convinced that this paper patch stuff is something of a "psi" talent. Some people, like me, read everything, try everything, over analyze everything, and slog along for months anyway until it comes together. When it does, we are amazed at how simple it was, all along. Others get it right away. In the middle of my travails, a friend loaded up a few for his rifle, just out of curiosity. He got a better group at 600 yards with his pick-up load than I was getting at 400, and announced that his curiosity was satisfied and he was going back to his grease-groove boolits because paper patching was too much hassle. Not much good for my morale, but I didn't give up.

[Radarsonwheels]

Ha! Yeah sometimes things that come too easy are no fun. I'm melting a one pound ingot of tin into a full Lee 20lb pot of pure lead. Not the most scientific but somewhere around 19:1? Expensive compared to range scrap pistol bullets I usually cast for my big bore handguns!

Thanks for the encouragement- Brent is helping me out so hopefully that'll shorten the learning curve.

[Nobade]

Sounds like you're not using a drop tube. 80 grains of powder should fit no problem, and will make things work a lot better as will a bigger diameter bullet. Does that rifle have any freebore in it, or do the lands come all the way to the case mouth? If it has freebore, I haven't been able to get bore diameter bullets to work at all. But if none, it should work well.

-Nobade

[Gunlaker]

If you follow Brent's advice you'll shorten your learning curve considerably.

Chris.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

radar, 20/1 is not a bad starting alloy.
using baco 9 lb paper you will need a 0.444 bullet, and seth cole 55w 8 lb tracing paper in 12" rolls a 0.445 bullet to fit nicely into a 0.450 bore.
the bullet you are using has to bump up a lot, possibly too much, to obturate and take the rifling instantly, allowing gas cutting and skidding.
a 0.444 bullet might suit you as you could use it with baco paper wiping for target shooting, and it would be a little smaller with seth cole for hunting.
if paper is too thick it won't work for bore dia bullets.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Radarsonwheels]

Sounds like you're not using a drop tube. 80 grains of powder should fit no problem, and will make things work a lot better as will a bigger diameter bullet. Does that rifle have any freebore in it, or do the lands come all the way to the case mouth? If it has freebore, I haven't been able to get bore diameter bullets to work at all. But if none, it should work well.

-Nobade

You got me! Building a drop tube is high on the list of things to do. I have been tapping my cases 10 times each on my bench in an effort to load some test ammo while I get all my kit together. Most of my BP experience is flintlocks and cap n ball pistols. I love the sound, smell, well you know. I got a k-31 and shoot a lot of 1-200 yard big bore pistols for fun and I got hooked on the challenge of iron sights. That combined with an interest in black powder lead me right to the sharps rifle. Funny that I didn't go with a high wall- I'm a huge browning fan.

Thanks for the advice! I will use it!
Here's a pic of my pedersoli 1874 chamber cast. Not my best work but it's in line with specs for the dp 45-70 reamer I've seen posted. DONT BE FOOLED its not a ton of freebore- its a short hornady leverrevolution case. My starline is 2.095" but my chamber allows 2.129" brass. I have 45-90 ordered to fix the .034" gap before the tiny amount of .4595" diameter freebore.

[Bent Ramrod]

That is a generous chamber all right. IIRC, Montana Charlie has a contact who makes a case stretcher that should bring your shells up to the proper length. A PM to him ought to get you the info.

[Radarsonwheels]

Generous? I don't know I haven't cast a ton of 45-70 chambers. Don't forget that's short hornady leverrevolution brass. My 2.096" oal fired starline brass is only .033 short of filling the 2.129" space for brass. Then the chamber tapers to .460 and the rifling begins almost immediately. I've heard the ruger #1 & 3s have tight or nonexistent throats. I don't know what the shiloh and C sharps 1874s are like. I do know that this gun shoots factory jacketed ammo well.

[Radarsonwheels]

I already bought some 45-90 brass to fit to this chamber. If I was competing then Charlie's porta power die setup would make financial sense but as it stands I can just use all my 45-70 for my marlin levergun and keep a small supply of 'match' loads for the sharps. Thats the plan anyway- I have to be able to hit the broad side of barn from inside it first!

I also ordered a fatter bullet mold to use with thinner paper, a drop tube, and a compression die. Hopefully I'll have some positive results in a week or two!

[Nobade]

You should, that will make all the difference. Welcome to the addiction!

-Nobade

[BlackPowderBen]

45-70 is one big round!

[BRUCE MOULDS]

ben,
not comparatively.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Radarsonwheels]

Hey Bruce!

Not to hijack but I think the 500+ grain paper patch .45 sticking out of a 2.1" rimmed case is pretty impressive to someone used to shooting a modern cartridge rifle. Like me for instance! I don't have the friends or the money to have ever handled two four or eight bore doubles, nor do I have a need for 338mag or 50bmg. (I wouldn't say no to any of the above!) I do cast 12g slugs but they are not so impressive looking in plastic hulls.

So what I'm thinking is I'd love to see a picture of your 50-90 with a 700 grain paper patched bullet seated .1" into the case, or whatever monstrosity you are loading!

As far as my own progress I have a small amount of 45-90 cut down to barely chamber that I need to fire form, and final trim. My new baco mold should be here maybe Monday or Tuesdayish and I sprung for a drop tube too since I seem to be too busy to make one. Hopefully I can whip up a load that will at least start to group so I can work on tightening that up.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

radar,
I shoot a 40/72 with 84 gns powder pushing a 440 gn pp bullet 0.125 in the case, and a 45/2.4 with 100 gns of powder behind a breech seated 540 gn bullet.
these loads with the 45/70 are sort of middle ground in bpcr.
you start getting up there with the 45/2 7/8 case, which can be more than a 50/70.
yes compared to a 223 or a 243 these are big loads, but that is apples and oranges.
in the overall scheme of things, the 45/70 is just about like a 308 in some ways.
when you get your brass fireformed, learn the amount of powder to droptube to the right height in the case you will have a start.
then get the patch template to suit the paper and bullet and it will be all systems go..
as you increase compression the right load will show itself.
you might try compressing up to 0.150", and just keep allowing the bullets to seat deeper as compression increases.
with swiss it will most likely be in that range of compression.
the biggest gun I have ever owned was a 450 nitro 3 1/4".
not pleasant to shoot, and not comparable to any bpcr round.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Radarsonwheels]

Howdy!

I have a progress report, just loading misadventures. I started with 20 45-90 cases and now I have 9 cartridges! I trimmed four too short before fire forming but they're still fine for my marlin 45-70. The rest I cut to 2.035. I shot them with 6 grains of titegroup (45 colt charge) under a full case (40gn) of cream of wheat. It made my 15lb sharps feel like one of those pop guns with a cork in the muzzle! The cases shrunk about .005 OAL and I trimmed them down to 2.025, .004 short of max in my chamber. So far so good.

I've always measured BP by volume, checking my powder throw against a sliding muzzle loader measure. This time I filled a case with my new drop tube and weighed it. It was a little over 80gn so I weighed out the rest of my charges at 80 grains with an RCBS automatic dispenser. I noticed a slooow pour settled slightly but noticeably tighter. Still looking good, now I have sixteen annealed fire formed trimmed primed and charged cases.

Next up- a card wad and a tiny bit of compression to get uniform seating depth. Time to use my new BACO rcbs cowboy die with powder compression plug. I could not get the darn thing to reliably go into my case mouths! After crushing a few cases I gave up on it and began using my lee flaring die backed off to seat my card wads and give a tiny crunch to the powder.

Maybe if I can get the compression plug to hang way below the die mouth I can guide it in with my fingers? The bevel in the Lee flare die's plug is not ideal for powder compression. I dropped the wrapped .444/.4495" bullets in (1/10" seating depth) and used my lee seating die with the plug removed to give a little crimp. Just enough so that an upside down cartridge won't drop the bullet out.

I asked how much for a box of 45-70 the other day at a gun store. Yikes! No way! It was around $2 a shot or something! I now have nine cartridges that probably cost over $20 a shot in my posession! Ha! If they work I will need to go into production and shoot a lot of them before the cost averages out to something that doesn't make me wince.

I sure am having a lot of fun though! Thanks everybody for the help and encouragement, and wish me luck getting these to group at the range!

radar

[Don McDowell]

A simple way to trim the cases down to the length you need is to use a Lee 45-70 case trimmer set up in a drill press, once you get the first case done to your desired length simply set the stop on the press for that length. It helps to keep things running smooth and cutting clean if you use just a touch of cutting oil.

[Gunlaker]

I use a .44 rifle compression plug for my .45 cal PP rifles. It is much less likely to damage a case.

Shiloh makes a compression die that is interesting, the plug protrudes from the bottom of the die and you can guide the case into it by hand as you raise the press lever. It indexes off of the case mouth. It's pretty neat, but it was designed for greater than 0.1" compression so is not quite as useful if you seat the bullet barely in the case.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

To avoid crushing cases when compressing powder:

Raise the ram until you feel the case mouth touch the compression plug.
With your other hand, slowly spin the case back and forth in the shell holder until you feel the plug drop into the case mouth.

Keep a very light pressure on the ram ... very light.

[country gent]

Lightly lubing the cutter and pilot on the case trimmer makes a big improvement in less effort and the cuts cleanness, also may help with those pesky chips coming off. I simply put a little water soluable cutting oil in a small shallow container ( A bottle cap works good) and dip the case mouth into it before inserting into trimmer. This puts a small amount of lube on and in the case mouth. I have used SPG or the emmerts Improved for this with good results also. As to compressing powder a light chamfer on the plugs edge helps alot and "feeling" the case up onto the plug is a big help. I use the seating die and a modified seating stem to compress powder in a seperate step. Another way that works for me is to make up a dummy bullet from steel, aluminum or brass. Dia for 45 cal should be .450 or so form of your bullet. This allows the seater to be used un modified. set it into case and use the seater to compress powder. If the dummy bullet is close to form of the bullet your loading no resetting of the die is needed. I have used the dummy bullet to compress powder with both PP and GG bullets. Its simple and works for me