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Thread: Shipping Loaded Cartridges

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    OK, perhaps I can shed some light on a variety of subjects discussed in this thread.. But first a word regarding my situation. I own & operate an independent mail & parcel shipping center where we accept items from the general public and we properly package and ship the items depending upon what is being shipped, where it is being shipped to and which carrier the public desires to use.
    I am an independent store operator meaning I am not owned or operated by UPS, FedEx, USPS, DHL or any other alphabet shipping company. I set my own rates. fees & hours. I do have to comply with the contracts I have signed with each of the carriers. Each carrier has their own website where they publish their Rates and most importantly their rules & tariffs.
    Although I am an independent I must abide by the laws of the United States and the Rules and Regulations established by the U.S. Government ( primarily the Dept Of Transportation (DOT). and BATF ( nasty bastards !) and then there is the situation with each carrier. Therefore I MUST know every carriers rules or at least where I can find the rules I need to know about..
    I am a USPS Approved Shipper, a FedEx Authorized Shipping Center, a UPS Authorized Shipping Outlet, I was involved with establishing the DHL Authorized Shipping Center program within the industry many years ago and I continue to work with leaders within this industry to improve conditions for the owners as well as the public.
    Since I am an independent owner operator I am generally classified by the carriers as a "Third Party" ( 3rd Party) when referenced in their rules, regulations & tariffs.
    The DOT regulates locations that are licensed to ship Hazardous materials ( HazMat) and the DOT regulates what is and what is not HazMat in conjunction with the manufacture of the product. Each manufacture is required to make available to the public Safety Data Sheets. These Safety Data sheets will tell you a lot about the product as well as to HOW it can be shipped. I am going to use Winchester rimfire ammo as an example.
    Olin / Winchester Safety Data Sheet
    http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...%20RIMFIRE.pdf
    DOT says that it is a Class 6 Explosive,

    U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION SHIPPING REGULATIONS: This product is classified as dangerous goods under 49 CFR 172.101. Note: May be reclassified domestically as an ORM-D or Limited Quantity if packaged in accordance with 49 CFR 173.63
    I ask - Do you know the regulations for proper packaging in accordance with 49 CFR 173.63 ??? Really ??? If you do then you can properly package it & properly mark it as ORM-D ( Other Regulated Materials - Class D )
    UPS Tariffs state that a UPS ASO (3rd party) shipper ( that is me ) CANNOT ship firearms. No handguns, no long guns, NO Explosives, No HazMat. Their reasoning is that UPS will be liable for any problems that may arise with DOT !!!! If I do & I get caught UPS can take away my UPS Account and I lose the ability to make a living. Same goes for FedEx, USPS, DHL.. Plus if any fines are to be levied by the DOT or the carrier those fine become MINE not UPS or FedEx or USPS fines. You can go to the DOT website and search it out and you will find a list of companies and individuals that have been fined HUGH sums every year..
    THE UPS Stores are franchisees of their parent company UPS (under an old umbrella of Mail Boxes Etc.)..These stores are also classed as 3rd party stores just like I am. There are many independent franchise companies such as PostNet , Postal Annex, Aim Mail Center,

    Handle With Care Packaging Stores, Parcel Plus, Sunshine Pack & Ship, and Annex Copy Center to name jus a few..
    and then there are a very large number of stores like myself that are not franchise stores at all. ALL these stores are 3rd party stores and must comply with the UPS or FEDEX rules regarding 3rd party stores. - NO UPS 3rd part store is permitted to ship HazMat.
    FedEx Office locations are owned and operated by FedEx. They are not regulated by 3rd party rules.

    Harv33 - let me answer tour original question - What is the cheapest way to mail loaded cartridges. Take your loaded cartridges to the local UPS COUNTER ( Not a UPS Store ) or a FedEx Office location. Make damn sure that you tell them what is in the package !!!! Then pay their price. That is the cheapest way. No fines, no jail time, no bail bonds, no loss of income, no attorneys fees, no time off the job, etc. etc. Do NOT take it to the USPS ( Post Office ) it is illegal to ship ammo thru USPS !!!!!! The USPS does not own any airplanes. The USPS just MAY ( their choice ) decide to place your package on a commercial aircraft carrying a couple hundred passengers. Therefore they don't want to have to segregate your packages. YES they do offer Ground shipping but that is also subject to being placed on a passenger plane therefore, no HazMat !!

    Brass Magnet.. YES all HazMat materials MUST be shipped via ground services. Would you like to have your family on the plane that is chock full of illegal explosives ??? Dynamite,?? Homemade nitro ?? Lithium batteries ??

    Rusty Reel - I certainly hope those costs do not entail all of the above hazards.. I sincerely hope all goes well.

    Shawlerbrook - when you obtained that account you also signed a contract that said you would comply with the UPS Rules, regulations & tariffs. Have you read them..

    RogerDat - You are correct. Take it to the UPS Customer Counter ( HUB ) or the FedEx Office location, They will record your information and record your I.D. info so the DOT knows exactly where to find you should a problem arise. ALL 3rd party locations are SUPPOSED to be obtaining I.D. info for UPS shipping of anything..Not just HazMat.. Very few comply.

    Mr Peabody.. Yes you can use UPS and FedEx from the proper locations and both should require the ORM-D label to be prominent on the package.. I certainly hope the store you use "downtown" is properly complying with the rules. Otherwise you could lose everything you ship with them. - YEP, those stores that are refusing to ship your HazMat item are your friends !!! They are telling you the truth. They are trying to keep you out of jail and keep their front doors open so they can make a living. Frequent them and use them every chance you get. They really are your friends !! It is that they don't want your business ( money ). It is a simple fact they can make a living from jail..

    MJWCASTER -- Classic example of - some will follow the rules - others will not even when they know what they are doing is illegal. Winchester - a manufacture of explosives. Licensed in HazMat shipping by DOT. Wwill ship with many carriers but be assured they will ship legally. They also like to stay in business.

    Dolfin... You have some correct info. BUT 3rd party FedEx locations are permitted by the FedEx tariffs to ship hand guns via FedEx Priority Overnight ONLY. FedEx permits 3rd party locations to ship longuns ( rifles & shotguns) via FedEx Ground or FedEx Express. BUT please keep in mind that the shipper must also comply with the laws of the city, municipality, county and state of the shipping locations as well as the receiving locations as well as the BATF rules and regulations which in part state that you cannot provide firearms or ammo to a minor. Now just how are you going to insure some 13 year old isn't going to get his hands on your FedEx package left on the receivers front porch?? Does either the shipper or the receiver possess a Federal Firearms License ??? Make sure you obtain an Adult Signature upon delivery. Only way to insure that 13 year old didn't take possession of the package,

    Dolfin gives you some very good information BUT only by following it to the letter can you ship HazMat legally..
    In the link he provided for UPS you will also find this statement: ( it is way down towards the bottom )
    Domestic Cartridges, small arms shipments that meet the exception for Limited Quantity/ORMD packages and that comply with all UPS requirements for the shipment of ammunition (as set forth above, in the "Shipping Firearms or Ammunition" guidelines, and in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service and the UPS Rate and Service Guide in effect at the time of shipping ("UPS Terms")) may be delivered by UPS to a third party retailer or UPS Access Point™ location in the United States.

    Know what a UPS Access Point is ?? If the delivery address is a residential location the UPS driver will make one (1) attempt to deliver the package. If the package requires an Adult Signature and an Adult is not available to receive the package then the driver will route your package to a UPS ACCESS POINT ( UPS Store, gas station, grocery store, convenience store, library, Starbucks, Hobby Lobby, Little Mike Hamburger Rest. etc, etc, etc, ) Ups will deliver the package to the Access Point the following day. and - should - be available for you to get it sometime that following day. Be aware there have been a lot of problems associated with the Access Point system and to be quite frank I only hear the horror stories and I am sure there are a lot of success stories there also..
    I am a UPS ASO - NO I will not ship your firearms or ammo via UPS !!
    I am a FedEx FASC - YES, I will ship your firearms. Handguns will go Priority Overnight.. Long guns can go Ground service.
    I am also a USPS Approved Shipper - Sorry NO firearms !!, No ammo..
    Shipping ammo.. No I will not ship it - take it to your carrier of choice - UPS hub or UPS Counter or FedEx Office.
    When someone walks into my store with a firearm the first thing I do is take possession of the firearm and make sure it is completely unloaded. No ammo in magazine, chamber, cylinders, etc, etc, There are a lot of people in the shipping business that do not know how to do that and are scared to death of handling a firearm. These are people that have NO business shipping any firearm !! BTW if there are any cartridges in the magazine or firearm they go in my pocket. They will not be shipped with the firearm.
    In conclusion. Very few really understand the HazMat rules, regulations, etc., etc, etc, .. So please do not bad mouth those stores that are refusing to ship your illegal HazMat materials.. They may not fully understand the rules and regulations either but they have made the decision that it simply is not worth the problems associated with it.
    I really hope this helps you to understand the problems associated with shipping firearms, primers, ammo, etc. It is not that I don't want to ship all this good stuff it is a situation that my hands are tied in some respects by the shipping companies that owns the ball and all the bases and DOT owns the playing field. I just get to bat and run the bases occasionally and sometimes I have even hit a home run..
    Ron































































































     

  2. #22
    Boolit Master


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    I am ignorant re regulations in your states, but it might be astute to note that -- thanks to the NYS SAFE Act -- ammunition may be ONLY bought and sold face-to-face; for me, often wishing "rare" and/or extremely hard to get (e.g., .30 Remington) cartridges it is a mega-inconvenience and annoyance. However, for someone out of New York State to unknowing of this stupid law ship some ammo to a New York State resident -- they might find themselves having broken the law. (I wish I could afford to move to another state...) Many catalogue sale stores -- e.g., Sportsman Guide, Cabela's, and similar -- have all the regulations they need follow right along with their ordering page/info. Might be worth a gander to check if the state you wish to ship to allows it...
    georgerkahn

    08/03 update: Here's the link to Sportsman Guide shipping restrictions -- it might be worth a gander before attempting to ship something which is illegal in receiver's state: http://image.sportsmansguide.com/ima...strictions.pdf
    georgerkahn
    Last edited by georgerkahn; 08-03-2016 at 09:18 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
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    I "recently" (a year ago, for us old guys) bought a big mess of obsolete primers from a fellow about 800 miles away.
    We both puzzled over the State and Federal regs, their exclusions and inclusions, exceptions and generalizations, and their rule-writers' Manifest Ignorance of the material they were regulating. After all was said and done, we charted out that:
    1. Live ammo could be shipped with an ORM-D label, by ground.
    2. Primed cases could be shipped the same as unprimed cases or chocolate bars. (Just don't get them too hot. Chocolate melts.)
    3. Primers alone could not be shipped without special certification and licensing of the shipper.
    The end result was that we agreed for me to pay for the primers up front, and wait until I was traveling through his part of the country to pick them up. I wanted to put an expiration date on our agreement, because I know how it is to have things hang-fire for decades, so I told him if he lost contact with me for a year, the primers were his. Being a man of principal, he wouldn't hear of it, but said they were mine forever, would be labeled as such, and should it take that long our heirs could sort it out
    (A good man, that one! Thanks, Friend; you know who you are!)
    About 8 months later, we made connections. I was passing through his town, we met, and I picked up the primers.

    Do your research. I think you'll find the regs are truly a zoo, and constantly changing with no apparent reason except some Bureaucrat's whim, an Activist's whine, an Ignoramus' fear, or a need to keep some intern busy writing something for a week or two. It's a tough job, but they really do their best.
    Good luck!
    Last edited by villagelightsmith; 08-11-2016 at 04:36 AM.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master


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    1. Live ammo could be shipped with an ORM-D label, by ground.

    EXCEPT to anyone/anywhere in New York State (and ??? maybe ??? others?)! USPS, UPS, and other carriers all have their "rules & regulations" which are compounded/added to by government imposed rules. There are TWO controlling entities, to wit: The shipper's regulations, AND, the government regulations. You addressed shipper's...
    To keep it simple, again, I suggest simply viewing what a major catalogue purveyor states complementing their respective ordering page. They are in business to make money, so IF it may be shipped to "your" state -- they'll do it. Conversely, possible fines outweigh profits vis shipping restricted (by state) items.
    In a prior post here I cited Sportsman Guide's, for which (once more) the link is: http://image.sportsmansguide.com/ima...strictions.pdf Hey -- their shipping prohibition list even includes flares, slingshots, CO2 cartridges, hand grenades, and spears... Re UN-restricted items -- the way I look at it is if they can ship "it" -- so may I.
    geo

  5. #25
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    George, Ammo can be shipped to a licensed dealer in NY. Makes no sense, but that is the way it is. The State Police are still trying to figure out how to get the ammo background check database up and running.
    New England Custom Bullets Inc.
    13 Maywood Rd
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    Email: pete@newenglandcustombullets.com

    PayPal:pete@newenglandcustombullets.com

    FFL

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ullet+maker+57

  6. #26
    Boolit Master


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    Yes -- you are correct re FFL's (obviously) being able to receive and sell ammo -- a gunshop without ammo surely would be like a surfboard shop in the middle of a desert! I assumed OP, and perhaps a great percentage of great persons using this site do NOT have the requisite Federal Firearms License, or, any other documentation to legally enable ammunition purchase which is not face-to-face. Thanks for adding your note.
    geo

  7. #27
    Boolit Mold
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    As near as I've been able to determine, we can't ship primers. But we can ship primed brass.
    So, "Ship me your prepped, unprimed brass; I'll prime them and ship them back."
    (Idiocy abounds.)

  8. #28
    Boolit Master


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    Again I reference the big-box commercial stores: "If they can do it, so may we" is my thinking. Upon reading your post (#27) I checked Cabela's shipping regulations (http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/cust...unRestrictions) and they printed:
    "Powder/Primers/Percussion Caps:
    Warning: Residents of Washington, DC, MA, NJ, and NY, please check your local laws for restrictions before ordering gunpowder products, primers, or percussion caps." Further, they add, "Due to state law we are unable to ship primers and powder to some cities in the state of New York. New York residents please call Customer Relations at 1-800-237-4444 for further information."

    Sportsman Guide has printed in URL I provided in Post #24, "
    Reloading Components (
    incl.
    brass, primers, hulls, etc.)
    Cannot be shipped
    to Washington, D.C.
    or
    internation
    ally.
    MUST be 18 to order.
    Mail Orders:
    sign
    legal notice on order form.
    Phone Orders:
    review legal notice on order form and provide verbal
    confirmation at time of ordering. Adult signature and Receipt service available (see order form)."


    There are other restrictions, e.g., buyer being over age 18, not a felon, et cetera. Barring these, I have provided documentation here above illustrating ability of primers to be shipped, except to designated (e.g., New York City, et al) locations. I'd love to see documentation to the contrary?
    BEST!
    georgerkahn

  9. #29
    Boolit Master phaessler's Avatar
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    With all the new 2018 Regulations , it appears California is now out of the question ? Or am I reading it wrong?
    https://ballotpedia.org/California_P...ine_Ban_(2016)

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master RogerDat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaessler View Post
    With all the new 2018 Regulations , it appears California is now out of the question ? Or am I reading it wrong?
    https://ballotpedia.org/California_P...ine_Ban_(2016)
    Have to ship ammo to a licensed retail outlet (such as gun shop) not to home address but can still purchase online. Can own some things you can no longer buy and sell, have some weapons you have to register that you didn't before. Along with conflict between ballot measure that passed and bill signed into law.

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/article189213039.html Covers most of what changed for this year in California.

    One that totally makes me shake my head is it is now a criminal act to bring in ammo from out of state. Any ammo, at all. Go hunting out of state and buy a box of ammo, have some left? Better throw it in the.... I don't know where do you throw live ammo? Never did that before. There was going to be a 50 round exemption but that was removed from the law. Pot is legal but a box of .22 you picked up cheap in Nevada makes you a felon. I don't have anything against pot being legal but have this weird idea that laws should at least try to make some sense.
    Je suis Charlie
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this way of getting casting material somehow.
    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat I do trade a bit from time to time.

  11. #31
    Boolit Mold
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    I have 5 boxes of CCI 22 mag ammo If I tried to sell them shipping would be as much as I could sell them for. It's getting to be to a point shipping plays a big part in your selling price and in most cases you might as well just keep it or try to sell it locally. Like said it's easier to pull the bullets de-prime and sell as components

  12. #32
    Boolit Master

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    I have shipped loaded shotgun ammo to Tom Armbrust for testing. Put it in a box within a box as specified, taped it thoroughly and drew the ORMD emblem on 2 sides with a permanent marker and took it to the USPO. Told them what was in it and they mailed, no problem. Took a long time to get there but get there it did. Pretty straightforward.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  13. #33
    Boolit Master phaessler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    I have shipped loaded shotgun ammo to Tom Armbrust for testing. Put it in a box within a box as specified, taped it thoroughly and drew the ORMD emblem on 2 sides with a permanent marker and took it to the USPO. Told them what was in it and they mailed, no problem. Took a long time to get there but get there it did. Pretty straightforward.
    Be mindful : https://www.usps.com/ship/shipping-restrictions.htm

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    OK, I just read again through pages of the regs. There are certain kinds of ammunition prohibited but SMALL ARMS ammo is ok with ORM-D designation. The PO accepted both times I took loaded shells to ship.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Shawlerbrook's Avatar
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    Hog tamer, not questioning your interpretation, but could you tell me exactly where you found that it is ok to USPS ship small arms ammunition?

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    Be nice if Trump would loosen the shipping restrictions at the usps. The hazmat stuff is bs.

  17. #37
    This is correct the ORM-D, designation is for small arms . I have shipped lots of ammunition to various parts of the country.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  18. #38
    Boolit Bub
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    Greetings,

    Proves the axiom, "It's only illegal if you get caught."

    https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_019.htm

    Small Arms Ammunition. Ammunition is classified as a Division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4 explosive, depending on the degree of hazard. Ammunition that is regulated as a Class 1 explosive and designed to be fired from a pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun, as well as associated primers and blank cartridges (including those designed for tools) and propellant powder for use in any firearm, is prohibited from mailing.

    Cheers,

    Dave

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
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