Problem with Hornady Custom Grade 45ACP Crimp and Seat Die - Need Advice

[rototerrier]

I have the Hornady Custom Grade Series II Taper Crimp 3 Die Set for 45 ACP and am having the hardest time getting the crimp right. First, I've taken the die apart to make sure it is in fact a taper crimp and it is. Wanted to make sure they didn't put the wrong die in the box. It is taper crimping, just stating this to get it out of the way as I know it will come up.

I reload 38, 357 and 9mm and use a factory crimp die for all of them. I decided to try to get away without using a factory crimp die for the 45 ACP and so far it isn't working out.

The problem I am having is the crimp appears to be completing before the bullet is fully seated. I am getting a little roll of lead where the case meets the boolit.

I am loading Lee 452-230 Truncated Cone and using the Flat Point seating plug that came with the die set. I also powder coat. Because the crimp is cutting into the bullet, it is causing a little bit of leading in the barrel.

I've tried bullets sized both .452 and .451 and I've varied my crimp between .472 and .474. I'm definitely not over crimping. IMO, I am under crimping. Comparing my crimp to factory loads and loads of other reloaders, I am not going far enough and yet the die is causing me issues.

Anyone else experience this and is this just the nature of seating and crimping at the same time with cast boolits? Logically it makes sense. It's going to keep trying to push the bullet in into the case while it's also crimping and at some point the 2 steps are going to be in conflict. In my case, its going just far enough to scrape a little roll of lead and leave a little ring around the bullet/case.

I've tried everything I know to try and am wondering if I am missing something?

[Guardian]

I've never had success seating and crimping lead bullets in a single step. Jacketed, yes. Lead, no. I do it in two steps on everything I crimp now.

[mdi]

Need to re-adjust the die. From your description, the crimp is coming on too soon. Common error with newer users trying to seat and crimp in one operation. I think I'd back way off on the seating stem and adjust the crimp (on an empty case), then bring the seating stem down, slowly, to proper bullet depth. I got frustrated the first time I tried crimping while seating so I just separated seating/crimping into two steps. That was 20+ years ago and I still use two steps. I batch load so it's no big deal w/me...

[Rockzilla]

I currently do this in separate operations, but try this take the seat / crimp die adjust it to just seat the bullet in the case without crimping to the proper OAL, once you have done that, and have the proper OAL, take the bullet seater stem and back it out, now take the same round, turn the die down until you get the proper crimp, once you have the desired crimp, then adjust the bullet seater stem down till you feel it touch the bullet, then maybe adjust the seater stem a quarter of a turn or less to take the "flex" out of the press, shell holder, try one round all you should have to do is some fine tuning, I also check the crimp by doing the "bench test" take the loaded round and push the bullet down on the bench, don't get carried away, if it moves easy, then there is not enough crimp, go back and re-adjust.
Remember the .45ACP headspaces on the case mouth, too much crimp is no good..
Generally I load "dummy" rounds that make setup a lot quicker, been reloading for 35+ years. You pick up little things here and there..
I do "batch" processing here also.

-Rock

[Smoke4320]

seating and crimping at the same time on lead bullets will be very difficult

You are attempting to progressively crimp while still pushing bullet down to final position .. so the crimp will either deduce lead size or shave some lead

[rototerrier]

This is what I suspected. I've had the same issues in the past with different die sets which is why I switched to separate crimp dies. I was thinking this particular die was going to be a little better, but it does the same thing as every other seat crimp die i've owned.

I do have great success with seating and crimping lead boolets that have a crimp groove. On those, I do combine seating and crimping. But, obviously, the crimp groove solves this issue.

I was hoping someone would have some magical remedy for this issue that i'd not yet considered. Looks like I'm off to pick up a separate crimp die. I'm now kicking myself in the pants for not just getting the lee 4 die set. This Hornady set is nice, but no reason having the seat/crimp die if I can't use it as intended.

[Wayne Smith]

I did the same thing, and ended up getting an RCBS taper crimp die off eBay.

[mdi]

A whole lot of reloaders do seat and crimp in one operation, and will tell how easy it is. Yep, but sometimes getting the operations coordinated so just enough crimp is applied just as the bullet reaches the seating depth and stops can be tricky...

[rototerrier]

Picked up a Lee factory crimp die today and quickly knocked out 100 perfect loads. Not a big deal since I did have a free die position. Guess I'm good to go. Thanks everyone for the input.

[mdi]

If you can't adjust a Hornady die to get good results you can't adjust a "post seating/crimping" die either...

[rototerrier]

If you can't adjust a Hornady die to get good results you can't adjust a "post seating/crimping" die either...

That's obsurd. 2 totally different things. That's like saying if you can't drive a stick you can't drive an automatic. Surely you can't possibly believe that? I can adjust a "post seating/crimping" die just fine. I have 10k 9mm and 38/357 rounds and now 250 45ACP to prove it. I've been reloading for 25 years and have used seating/crimping dies with great success. I'm just having an issue with this one die with this particular cast boolit. To make a blanket statement like that is just ignorant at best.

Thanks just ridiculous. Not sure why you'd even come on here and offer such nonconstructive, negative, and wholly inaccurate advice. And I say "advice" very loosely. That's more like trolling.

[r1kk1]

If you can't adjust a Hornady die to get good results you can't adjust a "post seating/crimping" die either...

I know where your going with this MDI. I set up mine like Rock states and it's basically the same as the Hornady, RCBS, etc instructions. I seat and crimp in one step using cast bullets in the wife's necked down 475 Linebaugh for her revolver. I may buy another seating die to use as a crimp die later and I may not. I also have a Hornady set for my 500 Linebaugh and later I found a Hornady taper crimp die for this cartridge. It works very well.

I like separate crimp dies but I have a lot of die sets without them.

Take care

r1kk1

[mdi]

Obsurb is using a Lee FCD to hide any cartridge defects that occur from miss adjusted dies. Adjusting a Hornady seating crimping die's "timing" is the same as adjusting a Lee die's seating/crimping timing...

But I could be wrong, as my Lee FCD now resides somewhere in a landfill in Southern Oregon. I've got nearly 30 years of reloading handgun ammo behind me and I also think of all those bizillion rounds reloaded, quite successfully, all those that chambered easily, prior to Lee's introduction of their FCD.

Not a Lee hater (I own Lee presses, Lee Loaders, Lee dies, and assorted Lee tools), just dislike touting Lee's FCD to new reloaders instead of suggesting proper die adjustment. If you would adjust your dies correctly...

BTW. my last post I left out "sizing" on my reference to Lee's FCD, should say "post seating/crimping sizing die".

Well this old "troll" will only answer posts that I have experience with. I reloaded .44 Magnum for 20+ years and got a Lee FCD out of curiosity. It ruined my carefully sized cast bullet loads and resulted in the worst leading my .44s have seen in at least 15 years. I did research on the FCD for semi-auto handguns and determined the same thing, the FCD is of no worth if one properly adjusts their other dies. If you can't get a cartridge to chamber without re-sizing it after seating/crimping, there is a problem. Funnny, but you seem to be the only one to whine about my answers in over nine years...

[noylj]

Should have got the Lee TAPER Crimp die, rather than the FCD. I have had FCDs swage my lead bullets down to smaller diameter and RUINED accuracy. Best use for the FCD is as part of the Bulge Buster Kit. The Bulge Buster Kit is a solution to a real problem.
Personal Rant: As far as I can see, the FCD was created because so many people seat their bullets crooked that the cases end up with a bulge at the base of the bullet on one side and the rounds won't chamber. So, rather than fix the issue (use the correct die expander diameter—and many don't even expand the case but use a tool that just flares the case mouth—and a seating stem that fits the bullet), folks like to just swaged the whole thing down since accuracy at 7 feet isn't that important any way—and they get to complain about how lead bullets just lead up the barrel and are worthless.
PS: The FCD is NOT the same as a sizing die (larger diameter). It works fine with jacketed bullets, but using one means that you would rather NOT fix the problem but just "iron" it out.

[Ron of Va]

I no longer use the seat/crimp dies, but I created a notebook for my son in case he ever wants to start reloading. I wrote these notes some time ago. Copy and Pasted for your consideration. I hope it helps.

A die that seats and crimps in the same step can cause a wrinkle in the case. (All the cases have to be the same length.) The case can start to crimp prematurely as the bullet is seated to the proper depth. This starts to squeeze the bullet early causing the case to buckle. Separate seating and crimping dies are recommended. However a die that does both can be used effectively if you know how to properly adjust the die, like RCBS. Adjusting the crimp is done by adjusting the die body up or down. Adjusting the depth of the bullet is done by the bullet seating stem.

1. Take an empty and flared case and run it up into the seat/crimp die until the flare is taken out and the case is straight. (Up and down with the ram, screwing in the die body a little at a time until the case mouth is straight) Lightly lock the die down.

2. Take another empty and flared case and set a bullet on top of the case. Run the bullet up in the press. Screw in the seating stem of the die until you get the length you want. (by screwing “in” the seating stem.) Back off the seating stem about an eight of a turn, because you are now going to set the crimp. (If you don’t back the seating stem off a little, the bullet will end up being too short, because the body of the die is going to get screwed in a little more)

3. Screw the seat/crimp die “in” about an eighth of a turn until you get the crimp at the top of the case you want. Measure the length of the round. Now adjust the seating stem of the die to get the OAL you want.

[dudel]

Should have got the Lee TAPER Crimp die, rather than the FCD. I have had FCDs swage my lead bullets down to smaller diameter and RUINED accuracy. Best use for the FCD is as part of the Bulge Buster Kit. The Bulge Buster Kit is a solution to a real problem.
Personal Rant: As far as I can see, the FCD was created because so many people seat their bullets crooked that the cases end up with a bulge at the base of the bullet on one side and the rounds won't chamber. So, rather than fix the issue (use the correct die expander diameter—and many don't even expand the case but use a tool that just flares the case mouth—and a seating stem that fits the bullet), folks like to just swaged the whole thing down since accuracy at 7 feet isn't that important any way—and they get to complain about how lead bullets just lead up the barrel and are worthless.
PS: The FCD is NOT the same as a sizing die (larger diameter). It works fine with jacketed bullets, but using one means that you would rather NOT fix the problem but just "iron" it out.

I wish people who don't use the FCD would stop spreading mis/disinformation about it. The FCD works fine, even on lead, as long as the Boolits are not oversized. Lee even spells this out in the documentation with the FCD. If your Boolits are oversized, then no, the FCD is not for you. Otherwise, the FCD works just fine for crimping. Under normal conditions, the FCD ring doesn't even size the case. But if you have an oversized bullet or a case with really thick walls, the FCD will ensure that the round chambers. Accuracy might not be the best; but the round will chamber and fire. (it really is spelled out in the Lee instructions).

[mdi]

I'll make a deal with you; I'll stop telling the truth about Lee FCDs when FCDs are no longer recommended to new reloaders (rather than adjusting their dies properly)...

[dudel]

I'll make a deal with you; I'll stop telling the truth about Lee FCDs when FCDs are no longer recommended to new reloaders (rather than adjusting their dies properly)...

FCD can solve problems that can't be corrected with die adjustments.

[noylj]

>I wish people who don't use the FCD would stop spreading mis/disinformation about it. The FCD works fine, even on lead, as long as the Boolits are not oversized.

Did you read my PS?
Wow, Forgive me for reporting my own PERSONAL experience with it. I will go out and tell the die that it can't do what it did 'cause dudel says so!
The fact still remains that it CAN swage a bullet down (and has for me) and using a Lee Taper Crimp Die eliminates that issue.
The only problems the FCD can eliminate are problems the reloader created by not setting up the dies correctly and then "ironing" out the problem.
Other than ironing out the case bulge from seating a bullet crooked (Not expanding the case properly and/or not having a bullet seating stem that fits the bullet, so the bullet tips during seating), what problems can the FCD correct that are NOT die adjustment problems?
I admit that the FCD produces a great crimp, it is having my lead bullets get swaged down that I object to.
Since it doesn't solve any "problem" that I have and causes me problems, I simply don't recommend it. Sorry.

[dudel]

>I wish people who don't use the FCD would stop spreading mis/disinformation about it. The FCD works fine, even on lead, as long as the Boolits are not oversized.

Did you read my PS?
Wow, Forgive me for reporting my own PERSONAL experience with it. I will go out and tell the die that it can't do what it did 'cause dudel says so!
The fact still remains that it CAN swage a bullet down (and has for me) and using a Lee Taper Crimp Die eliminates that issue.
The only problems the FCD can eliminate are problems the reloader created by not setting up the dies correctly and then "ironing" out the problem.
Other than ironing out the case bulge from seating a bullet crooked (Not expanding the case properly and/or not having a bullet seating stem that fits the bullet, so the bullet tips during seating), what problems can the FCD correct that are NOT die adjustment problems?
I admit that the FCD produces a great crimp, it is having my lead bullets get swaged down that I object to.
Since it doesn't solve any "problem" that I have and causes me problems, I simply don't recommend it. Sorry.

Sorry it didn't work for YOU; but it does work for many others. If you are using oversized Boolits; and it sounds like you are; then the FCD isn't for you. There is a poll on another forum here, where the FCD has more users than not. I guess we can all stop using the FCD because noylj says we don't need it?

Tipped bullets is not the reason for the FCD; but it deals with uneven or extra thick brass thickness. Just read the documentation.

My Hornady dies with inline seater, seat straight thank you very much. I don't need to "iron" any brass out.

Sorry, this is not an FCD thread.

Back to the OP's question. I use Hornady dies, and managed to seat and crimp in one step. I changed to two steps when I went to the 550b. Changed because it was easier when changing bullet profiles. I only had to change the seating, and not the crimp. If I found I was shaving some lead from the boolit, I used to increase the flare a bit. Didn't like doing that because it worked the brass more. That seemed to allow the boolit to seat further before the full crimp closed the mouth back up.